Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Horatio Parker · 10-10-2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Apparently people who actually study the issue disagree with your assessment. I've already linked to places where this is discussed and the evidence is presented.

I think there's an affinity of idea, but what readings Paul knew and how he understood them aren't known.

What seems to me the important issue is the degree of awareness of the role of the mind. That seems to divide the OT and NT and is a Greek influence. But whether Plato or someone else is hard to say.

Clivedurdle · 10-10-2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

the role of the mind.

Are you referring to http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php

Quote:

At the heart of this book is the revolutionary idea that human consciousness did not begin far back in animal evolution but is a learned process brought into being out of an earlier hallucinatory mentality by cataclysm and catastrophe only 3000 years ago and still developing. The implications of this new scientific paradigm extend into virtually every aspect of our psychology, our history and culture, our religion - and indeed, our future. In the words of one reviewer, it is "a humbling text, the kind that reminds most of us who make our livings through thinking, how much thinking there is left to do."

sotto voce · 10-10-2012, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Apparently people who actually study the issue disagree with your assessment. I've already linked to places where this is discussed and the evidence is presented.

I think there's an affinity of idea

What would that be? Let's make a start on this issue, shall we?

Instead of playing fatuous games.

Quote:

What seems to me the important issue is the degree of awareness of the role of the mind.

... that somehow imagines 'non-specific osmosis of concepts' as 'non-specific osmosis of events'!

Of course, if one wants to present 'the degree of awareness of the role of the mind' as due to non-specific osmosis of concepts, and as all one's own work, one can. It's not illegal.

Quote:

That seems to divide the OT and NT and is a Greek influence.

That's the role of the mind, anyway. It's the very continuity of OT and NT that has been so unsettling to minds; since Jews left Paul for dead, as it happens.

Quote:

But whether Plato or someone else is hard to say.

Is this a climb-down? Progress, at least!

'there's an affinity of idea' What would that be? Let's make a start on this issue, shall we?

Net2004 · 10-10-2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

It's the very continuity of OT and NT

the suffering servant is israel

for your education i thought i post links to a video and article

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_TeOtzTaAco

http://religionatthemargins.com/2012...essiah-part-2/

sotto voce · 10-10-2012, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

Quote:

It's the very continuity of OT and NT

the suffering servant is israel

Then why did almost everyone, against their wills, disagree?

Find Plato, or anyone outside the OT, in the NT.

Go on. Be brave.

Net2004 · 10-10-2012, 09:06 AM

you have the holy ghost, why can't you find the play button? are you not brave?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_TeOtzTaAco

http://religionatthemargins.com/2012...essiah-part-2/

sotto voce · 10-10-2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

you have the holy ghost

Ghost? You scared, or what?

Post #umpteen, and still waiting.

Horatio Parker · 10-10-2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

the role of the mind.

Are you referring to http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php

Quote:

At the heart of this book is the revolutionary idea that human consciousness did not begin far back in animal evolution but is a learned process brought into being out of an earlier hallucinatory mentality by cataclysm and catastrophe only 3000 years ago and still developing. The implications of this new scientific paradigm extend into virtually every aspect of our psychology, our history and culture, our religion - and indeed, our future. In the words of one reviewer, it is "a humbling text, the kind that reminds most of us who make our livings through thinking, how much thinking there is left to do."

That's a separate issue, highly relevant to spirituality and religion, but a wider scope than we're discussing. Not sure about the cataclysmic catastrophic part though.

The question isn't the empirical role of the mind, but how the ancients thought of it. That enlightenment is a mental process is fundamental to Plato and the Greeks is my point.

aa5874 · 10-10-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by proudfootz

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Of course it matters whether the Pauline writings were early or late. What are you talking about??

For the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter if Paul is dated 1st, 2nd, or 3rd century AD. It doesn't matter if one guy wrote them, or a committee.

The best explanation for the presence of Platonism in the content of the texts stems from the fact that Plato had been around for several hundred years already, and as an influential force in Greek literature influenced the authors of the 'epistles'.

I'm only talking about Paul on this thread as an example of hellenistic influence on an author now taken to be 'christian'.

Well, why are arguing about Platonism in the Pauline writings if you don't even know how or when it happened??

If the Pauline letters were manipulated then when was the original composed and what was the original content???

The presence of Platonism means very little if you cannot associate the writings with any specific time period.

With your flawed view, Paul may be Plato.

Horatio Parker · 10-10-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

What would that be? Let's make a start on this issue, shall we?

OK, I'll take a shot.

The recognition of Paul of the limits of the law, that the law provides a incomplete picture of the divine, that ultimate meaning comes from a higher, transcendent, non-verbal reality is similar to the dual nature of reality as explained by Plato.

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10-10-2012, 09:06 AM	#86
Net2004 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: U.K Posts: 217	you have the holy ghost, why can't you find the play button? are you not brave? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_TeOtzTaAco http://religionatthemargins.com/2012...essiah-part-2/

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