Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steve Weiss · 08-05-2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well how is it the disciples wanted to PHYSICALLY see the resurrected Jesus when it was NOT necessary in the first place?
<snip>
If Jesus was an ORDINARY man then the resurrection story is complete NONSENSE.

So, we have to demonstrate that Jesus was NOT an ORDINARY man.

His resurrection IS the demonstration.

Some people had a doubt, when this miracle was told to them. They needed some confirmation. Then, first, they were told that some disciples had also doubts. That's very normal, they are told... Look, some disciples [the upper category of christians] had also doubts. Thomas had doubts. BUT, BUT, BUT, these doubts disappeared after some testing.

So, you who had a doubt, either you join Thomas and the disciples, and you are a good christian, or you still have a doubt, and Hell, we cannot do anything for you.

Jesus IS NOT an ORDINARY man.

And here I thought that the French had risen above Christianity, or are you not French but just live there?

You presume that the bible is a factual account which it quite obviously is not. No amount of ancient witnesses to an alleged miracle will verify the reversal of the natural laws of physics and chemistry. To use the bible to validate the bible is also an obvious case of begging the question. There is no such thing as a resurrection, not for Osiris, Jesus, Mohammed, or any other largely fictional characters written about by authors unknown at unknown points in history.

PhilosopherJay · 08-05-2011, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Do you close with "warmly" because you are on your way to roast in hell? The all loving god will certainly consign you to unending torture for your blaphemies.

ROFLMAO

Actually, it is partially because I want to end posts on a warm (friendly) note and partially because I live in Florida. Florida once was considered quite warm for the United States. Now, thanks to the miracle of global warming brought to you by big oil companies among others, it is getting to be average.
As for where I'm going when I die, I hope that the goddess Aphrodite will be there to greet me with a kiss and a hug. However, never having done it before, and never hearing from anybody who has done it, I just say "Que sera, sera" and try not to think about it much.

Si vales, bene est, ego valeo

Philosopher Jay

Steve Weiss · 08-05-2011, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Steven:

If I thought there was something to Christianity that would answer in my mind the question of why so many people believe it. The sort of question that interests me is why do lots of people often believe bull shit. Think here of astrology, ancient aliens or supply side economics. There are lots of counterfactual propositions to which many are wed, religious propositions are by no means the only kind. I think if you look at history you will find that much suffering has been caused by peopled who believed bull shit, and acted upon those beliefs.

Steve

So, you are wondering why people think irrationally? Because they have never been taught differently and because they prefer myths to facts. They don't like reality so they seek to rewrite it.

Steve Weiss · 08-05-2011, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Do you close with "warmly" because you are on your way to roast in hell? The all loving god will certainly consign you to unending torture for your blaphemies.

ROFLMAO

Actually, it is partially because I want to end posts on a warm (friendly) note and partially because I live in Florida. Florida once was considered quite warm for the United States. Now, thanks to the miracle of global warming brought to you by big oil companies among others, it is getting to be average.
As for where I'm going when I die, I hope that the goddess Aphrodite will be there to greet me with a kiss and a hug. However, never having done it before, and never hearing from anybody who has done it, I just say "Que sera, sera" and try not to think about it much.

Si vales, bene est, ego valeo

Philosopher Jay

I would assume that the northern panhandle of Florida is more chilly than the southern part, and I'll bet that the average yearly temps in Florida are much higher than in my hometown of Chicago. Do you have some reason to think differently?

Juststeve · 08-05-2011, 09:42 AM

Steve Weiss:

Rationally I probably should have dealt with Christian Missionaries the way you deal with Jehovah's Witnesses but I was unable to. Although I know the Pogroms are over and unlikely to return, there is something about Christians preaching to Jews that really pisses me off. We are all to a certain extent captives of history, me included.

Steve

aa5874 · 08-05-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

aa:

The Book Of Acts doesn't really enter into my thinking. Christianity was wide spread and influential enough, in Rome, for Constantine to make it his and the state religion early in the fourth century. That's pretty impressive growth.

Steve

You think 200 years is a very short time for MULTIPLE Christians Cults with MULTIPLE Christians Beliefs to spread?

You seem not to even understand that the term CHRISTIAN does NOT always mean people who believe the Jesus story.

How many times do I have to tell you so?

There were MULTIPLE Christians Cults that that were NOT at all related to the Jesus story.

Do you understand what is meant by HERESY?

Please read about the MULTIPLE ASSORTED beliefs of CHRISTIAN cults in antiquity.

There were Christians that BELIEVE ONLY in GOD.

There were Christians that ONLY BELIEVED in Marcion's PHANTOM.

There were Christians that BELIEVED in the Doctrine of Basilides, Valentinus, Carpocrates, Cerinthus, the Ebionites, Marcos, Saturnilus, Simon Magus, Menander, Justinus and others.

Now, you say that you don't accept Acts of the Apostles but the PAULINE writers appear to CORROBORATE Acts of the Apostles.

The author of Acts claimed "Paul" persecuted Christians and "Paul" claimed he PERSECUTED the FAITH.

How did "Paul" manage to persecute the Christians in the shameless implausible fiction story about the Holy Ghost and the conversion of thousands of Christians in Acts?

You don't believe Acts but you believe "Paul"?

Well, "Paul" appears to be a shameless fiction writer that corroborated Acts.

See Acts 8 and then Galatians 1.

"Paul" IDENTIFIED himself as the same Saul/Paul in Acts.

See Acts 9 when Paul was in a basket in Damascus and 2 Cor 12 when "Paul" claimed he was indeed in a basket in Damascus.

The Pauline writers SUPPORT the shameless NONSENSE and blatant implausible fiction in Acts of the Apostles.

aa5874 · 08-05-2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Steven:

If I thought there was something to Christianity that would answer in my mind the question of why so many people believe it. The sort of question that interests me is why do lots of people often believe bull shit. Think here of astrology, ancient aliens or supply side economics. There are lots of counterfactual propositions to which many are wed, religious propositions are by no means the only kind. I think if you look at history you will find that much suffering has been caused by peopled who believed bull shit, and acted upon those beliefs.

Steve

Well, it is not Christians alone who believe the Jesus story is NOT all bull shit.

The Jesus stories read like bull shit to me.

I have no reason to NOT accept them as bull shit.

Why aren't the Jesus stories bull shit?

Jesus was the Child of a Ghost, God and the Creator of heaven and earth, that walked on water, TRANSFIGURED, resurrected on the THIRD day and ascended to heaven in a cloud.

That is bull shit.

Who are the people that refuse to accept that the Jesus stories are bull shit?

Without any other source for the Jesus stories then I must regard the Jesus stories as bull shit.

Juststeve · 08-05-2011, 10:54 AM

aa:

Attempting to engage with you at all was against my better judgment. I think I will just go back to ignoring you unless you say something either new or interesting.

Steve

Edmundo · 08-05-2011, 11:09 AM

writing with a purpose. And they did their job good. Bible is still there know. Big book with huge influence and results.

No bad job. I assume it was written by an or some authors just for their own reasons. Or was it a task work? Oh, such bad questions...

Horatio Parker · 08-05-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

To No One In Particular:

What to make of Matthew 28, 16-17? We have an account of Jesus appearing post resurrection to the disciples with the added information that an undisclosed some doubted. (Just Thomas or is one doubter too few to make a some?) Seems like the injection of the doubting disciples serves no apologetic purpose, tends to weaken the claim that the resurrection is evidenced by the appearances. What are we to make of it?

If we were particularly simple minded we might just declare that its all NONSENSE. Or we might wonder whether, assuming there were disciples who thought they had had resurrection experiences, what the manner of those experiences were. We might wonder whether they were visionary experiences, more convincing to some than to others. We might start to wonder whether the disciples experiences were more like that the Apostle Paul had than those narrated in the Gospels. Experiences that would still leave room for doubt in at least some.

It might help to answer the simple minded question "how could they have convinced people that Jesus was RAISED from the dead when the RESURRECTION NEVER really happened?" How is it that roughly a billion people have come to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead when we have excellent reason to think that never happened?

Steve

I think it's possible that the body of a crucified wise man or sage disappeared, leading to an oral tradition that he rose from the dead. Paul and co were preaching their Christ gospel and someone said, "hey must be the same guy".

None of helps with the Thomas story. What I think is interesting about Thomas is that the doubter was rewarded with a vision of Jesus. That suggests doubt is a good thing, but you I'm skeptical you'll ever hear it interpreted that among Xtians.

08-05-2011, 11:09 AM	#39
Edmundo New Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Germany Posts: 4	The Bible is very old - but also then, there were people writing with a purpose. And they did their job good. Bible is still there know. Big book with huge influence and results. No bad job. I assume it was written by an or some authors just for their own reasons. Or was it a task work? Oh, such bad questions...

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08-05-2011, 09:42 AM	#35
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Steve Weiss: Rationally I probably should have dealt with Christian Missionaries the way you deal with Jehovah's Witnesses but I was unable to. Although I know the Pogroms are over and unlikely to return, there is something about Christians preaching to Jews that really pisses me off. We are all to a certain extent captives of history, me included. Steve

08-05-2011, 10:54 AM	#38
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	aa: Attempting to engage with you at all was against my better judgment. I think I will just go back to ignoring you unless you say something either new or interesting. Steve

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