Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-18-2012, 01:15 PM

There are examples of stories about Jesus or sayings of Jesus which turn into parables with the canonical gospels. For instance the parable of the rich fool seems to have been part of a narrative where both it and the rich man and Lazarus where actual events rather than parables. Jesus's saying about himself being 'the stranger' becomes a parable of a king speaking about God being a stranger in Matthew 25.

I am not sure that we can be certain that the Gospel of Thomas is the oldest gospel or that narratives came after collections of sayings. After all, from the point of view of mythicists, Jesus is unlikely to have had a life before a narrative was created about him

A point against that argument is that the FULL NAME of the 'Gospel of Thomas' is 'the Gospel of Judas the twin.' In other words, it is a collection of saying either by or to Judas ('by' assuming of course that the Islamic and early heretical tradition that Jesus WAS Judas or became Judas is the oldest). Notice also that in the Semitic cultures where Christianity like developed first, Judas Thomas is their first saint.

One can conceive of a possible cult of Judas as beloved of God might have been the only historical core of Christianity. Hence the desperate attempt to demonize Judas by the orthodox. Such a tradition would have taken a great interest in Genesis 49:10. Interestingly Justin does develop numerous interpretations of the prophesy regarding Judah. Strange for a Samaritan. It couldn't have been because he believed that the messiah or one to come had to be a Jew. He could just as easily have taken an interest in a man named Judah as the beloved of God

There never was a disciple named 'Thomas.' The effort of Europeans to create a disciple of this name is dishonest and merely shields what was certainly the original importance of Judas

Clement thinks for some reason that Judas means 'power.' The etymology is not from Philo who identifies the name as meaning 'confessing to God'

stephan huller · 01-18-2012, 01:24 PM

Jacob's prophesy about Judas/Judah:

Quote:

Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father’s sons will bow down to you.
You are a lion’s cub, Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs (= Shilo/the messiah) shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.
He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk

mountainman · 01-18-2012, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

How did Christianity's understanding of the biography of Jesus cross the Rubicon from..parable to literal history?

It used the Milvian Bridge. (Source)

sotto voce · 01-19-2012, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

the Milvian Bridge.

The route from bothersome reality to comfortable caricature.

Doug Shaver · 01-19-2012, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

I learn something new every day.

That can happen when you stop assuming your own infallibility.

PhilosopherJay · 01-19-2012, 08:17 AM

Hi Stephan Huller,

Good point about Thomas being "Judas the Twin."

What I find interesting is the contrast in the characterizations of Jesus and the apostles. The character of Jesus is fleshed out a half dozen different ways. He is over-fleshed. We are getting the inconsistent personalities of several different gods and several different men under the label "Jesus." The apostles have no characterization in the gospels. They have no personalities. They are interchangeable. They are not fleshed out, but barely one-dimensional cartoon figures.

Only in the case of Judas do we get a hint of a personality. He is a traitor. Even here, there is no real description. Where does he come from? Who are his parents? What was his education? Does he have a beard? Is he thin, fat, old, young? How does he feel about the betrayal of Jesus?

Suddenly, we are told about Judas, the Twin? Twin of Thomas? Twin of Jesus? Twin of somebody else? A reference to the astrological sign of the twin - Gemini?

There is a weird incompatibility in the gospels between the way Jesus is developed as a character and the apostles are not.

One can represent the incompatibility between the style used to paint the Apostles and Jesus this way:

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

There are examples of stories about Jesus or sayings of Jesus which turn into parables with the canonical gospels. For instance the parable of the rich fool seems to have been part of a narrative where both it and the rich man and Lazarus where actual events rather than parables. Jesus's saying about himself being 'the stranger' becomes a parable of a king speaking about God being a stranger in Matthew 25.

I am not sure that we can be certain that the Gospel of Thomas is the oldest gospel or that narratives came after collections of sayings. After all, from the point of view of mythicists, Jesus is unlikely to have had a life before a narrative was created about him

A point against that argument is that the FULL NAME of the 'Gospel of Thomas' is 'the Gospel of Judas the twin.' In other words, it is a collection of saying either by or to Judas ('by' assuming of course that the Islamic and early heretical tradition that Jesus WAS Judas or became Judas is the oldest). Notice also that in the Semitic cultures where Christianity like developed first, Judas Thomas is their first saint.

One can conceive of a possible cult of Judas as beloved of God might have been the only historical core of Christianity. Hence the desperate attempt to demonize Judas by the orthodox. Such a tradition would have taken a great interest in Genesis 49:10. Interestingly Justin does develop numerous interpretations of the prophesy regarding Judah. Strange for a Samaritan. It couldn't have been because he believed that the messiah or one to come had to be a Jew. He could just as easily have taken an interest in a man named Judah as the beloved of God

There never was a disciple named 'Thomas.' The effort of Europeans to create a disciple of this name is dishonest and merely shields what was certainly the original importance of Judas

Clement thinks for some reason that Judas means 'power.' The etymology is not from Philo who identifies the name as meaning 'confessing to God'

jgreen44 · 01-19-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote: