dog-on

Like I said. Perhaps he was simply batting for the other team.

J-D

I knew you must be right about something! It isn't much, but there it is!

J-D

But, predictably, it doesn't help.

aa5874

Justin Martyr in First Apology 26 claimed Marcion was alive while he was writing.

Justin Martyr in First Apology 26See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Sheshbazzar

Strange, that Marcion had 'collected' and 'used' TEN of Paul's epistles,_
and according to Justin, Marcion was still alive while Justin was writing, and Marcion's influence was spread all around the Roman Empire by the time of Justin's writings_
Yet Justin shows no evidence of any awareness of 'Paul', The NT's most prolific writer, and the foremost former and expositor of Christian doctrine, and is blithely unaware of the contents of Paul's well known Epistles, and of that account of him given in The Book of Acts.

Something is not Kosher with this scenario.

show_no_mercy

Well Justin is aware of a book of Acts - the Acts of Pilate.

aa5874

But, he appears not to be aware of Acts of the Apostles or any of the Pauline Epistles.

Sheshbazzar

It appears to be a 'cultivated' unawareness, as it is recorded and generally accepted that Marcion employed TEN of Paul's Epistles in his form of Christianity, and his so called 'heresy' was well known and spread all around the Roman Empire during their lifetimes (Marcion 85-160, Justin 100-165) if these dates are anywhere near correct, it would have been virtually impossible for Justin to have actually remained unaware of Marcion's employment of these Pauline Epistles, and of Paul's involvment in Christianity.

Looks more like there were two 'camps' of Christians involved in a theological war and a power struggle, Martyr's form being the older and the original, and Justin's the newer one, still as yet rejecting giving the (already) Marcionite accepted 'Paul', or Pauline Epistles any play, engaging in a deliberate attempt to ignore them.
Yet eventually the early Church had to deal with these very widely known and popular writings, which they eventually did, but only after modifying them and interpolating their religious views. Then, and only then, was the 'orthodox' Church ready to accept and embrace 'Paul' and these Pauline Epistles as being among their cannon.

mountainman

There are in fact Three Separate "Acts of Pilate" and it is clear that Justin is aware of the early forged nonsense version.

(1) The very early christian "Acts of Pilate"
(2) The early fourth century pagan "Acts of Pilate"
(3) The late fourth century christian "Acts of Pilate"



"The FIRST Early Christian 'ACTS OF PILATE'

Two Eusebian sources, Justin Martyr and Tertullian, make reference to the existence of some "Acts of Pilate" in the second and early third century. However we cannot be sure precisely what it was they were making reference to, especially in the case of Tertullian, who tries to assure us that Pontius Pilate became "christian". We do not have any documentary evidence that either Justin or Tertullian witnessed the same "Acts of Pilate" which has survived to the 21st century. The earliest "Acts of Pilate" appear as apologetic assertions. Eusebius makes no reference to these earlier references when he is discussing the sudden appearance of the "Pagan Acts of Pilate". We might consider that the "Early Christian Acts of Pilate" are wishful thinking.

In their book Apocryphal gospels Hans-Josef Klauck and Brian McNeil (2003) write:

"This is most likely not evidence that Christian documents in the name of Pilate already existed; rather,
these texts have inspired the composition of the Acts of Pilate."

In their book The Apocryphal New Testament James Keith Elliott and Montague Rhodes James write (p.164):

"It is unlikely that Justin was referring to the present work;
either he knew another treatise of this name or else merely
assumed such a dicument must have existed."

Justin Martyr's Apology

Justin Martyr [c.150-155] remarks in his first Apology (35)
(to the emperors Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus.)
after he has mentioned the passion and crucifixion of Jesus:
'And that these things happened you can ascertain
from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.'
A similar statement occurs in chapter 48.

CHAPTER XXXV -- OTHER FULFILLED PROPHECIES.

And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture,
and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that
things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.

CHAPTER XLVIII -- CHRIST'S WORK AND DEATH FORE- TOLD.

And that it was predicted that our Christ should heal all diseases
and raise the dead, hear what was said. There are these words:
"At His coming the lame shall leap as an hart,
and the tongue of the stammerer shall be clear speaking:
the blind shall see, and the lepers shall be cleansed;
and the dead shall rise, and walk about."
And that He did those things, you can learn
from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.

Tertullian's Apology

Tertullian refers twice to a report made by Pilate to Tiberius. According to him, Pontius Pilate informed the Emperor of the unjust sentence of death which he had pronounced against an innocent and divine person; the Emperor was so moved by his report of the miracles of Christ and his resurrection, that he proposed the reception of Christ among the gods of Rome. But the Senate refused (Apologeticum 5).

TERTULLIAN , APOLOGY.
[TRANSLATED BY THE REV. S. THELWALL]

CHAPTER. V.

Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favour of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians.

In another place Tertullian [200-205 CE] says that the 'whole story of Christ was reported to Caesar at that time it was Tiberius by Pilate, himself in his secret heart already a Christian' (Apol. 21, 24).

CHAP. XXI.

Thereafter, having given them commission to preach the gospel through the world, He was encompassed with a cloud and taken up to heaven, - a fact more certain far than the assertions of your Proculi concerning Romulus. All these things Pilate did to Christ; and now in fact a Christian in his own convictions, he sent word of Him to the reigning Caesar, who was at the time Tiberius. Yes, and the Caesars too would have believed on Christ, if either the Caesars had not been necessary for the world, or if Christians could have been Caesars.


UTTER FORGED EUSEBIAN NONSENSE.

Justin is unaware of the text in our possession now called "The Acts of Pilate" in which Pontius Pilate informs the Jews that Jesus heals by the power of Asclepius. The above concerns the "Early Christian" version of the "Acts of Pilate". The above link also provides a discission of the remaining two versions of the Acts of Pilate.

(2) The early fourth century pagan "Acts of Pilate"
(3) The late fourth century christian "Acts of Pilate"

aa5874

Why would Justin "cultivate" an unawareness for one of the most prolific writer, and evangelist for Jesus who traveled all over the Roman Empire preaching that Jesus was crucified, died, and was resurrected to save mankind from sin?

Justin Martyr did not cultivate an unawareness of [/b]a supposed contemporary of Paul[/b] named Simon Magus who called himself some kind of Holy One that Justin claimed was of the devil.

Now, according to Justin, Marcion's Jesus was not the son of the God of the Jews and further the Father of Marcion's Jesus was greater than the God of the Jews.

Marcion did not need any Pauline Epistles, since PAUL would have already, long before Marcion was born, spread throughout the Roman Empire that Jesus was the son of the God of the Jews who was crucified, died and resurrected for the sins of mankind according to Hebrew scripture.

Marcion's Jesus could not be crucified, die or resurrect since he had no flesh; he could not even bleed. Marcion's God is not in Hebrew Scripture.


What source of antiquity show that Justin Martyr had rejected "Marcionite accepted Paul"?

Please tell me when Paul was a preacher for the devil and Marcion.

First Apology 58 This is Paul's teachings long before Marcion was even born.This is completely anti-Marcionite.

Romans 1:1-4 - Marcion did not need the Pauline Epistles at all.



Justin Martyr writings do not reflect any popularity at all of the Pauline Epistles or the post-conversion history of Saul/Paul anywhere.

Justin claimed that almost all of Samaria believed in Simon Magus and the Marcionites laughed at him and were of the devil, there is no indication that Justin had seen or heard of Paul's writings anywhere either as of the devil or Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost of the God of the Jews.

Either way, Paul should have been a well-known docetic or anti-docetic with many churches and converts even before Marcion was born, yet Justin Martyr only wrote about magicians who were christians and Jesus believers like Marcion.

I don't think Marcion had ever seen or heard any Pauline Epistles.