Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wavy_wonder1 · 12-06-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_cave

Hi spin--from whom do you get this understanding? Where do you think Mark originally ended?

After the little apocalypse in chapter 13, waiting for the end. It's my reading.

spin

I'm interested in seeing how you would make this case. Care to share?

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Sheshbazzar · 12-06-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavy_wonder1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Already did, -fourty- years ago, how many -years- have you devoted to the study of this particular subject?

You posted your thoughts about who has/hasn't taken to the time to do a word study on 'three days' references, and I responded, offering my opinion that there's little to illumine the origin of the 'three days/third day' with regard to Jesus' Resurrection.

Have you come to a different conclusion?

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Goliath is accounted as having "six fingers" and "six toes", "four and twenty" DIGITS in total.
Just a quaint old myth to you, right? The significance of this detail being utterly beyond the range of your mental radar?
You don't comprehend it having any significance, so it is therefore without significance to anyone else?
Do tell now, how many "fingers" are in your "hand-breadth", and within each of your cubits, both the common and the great, and greater, and by what measure you measure the depths, have you yet plumbed the matter of fifteen fathoms and of twenty fathoms the sum thereof, the difference thereof, and the precise divisions thereof?
A different conclusion? certainly, for there is very, very much that is available to illumine the story.
But just to keep the numbers small, can you conceive of a "half" of an entire, or "full" day?
How many "half" days do you find then to be in three full days?
And in three and a half days? And what proportion of "fifteen" days is three days? and of "twenty one" days?
The question has been posed of old; "Are your ways equal?"

"Shesh-batzar"

wavy_wonder1 · 12-06-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Goliath is accounted as having "six fingers" and "six toes", "four and twenty" DIGITS in total.
Just a quaint old myth to you, right? The significance of this detail being utterly beyond the range of your mental radar?
You don't comprehend it having any significance, so it is therefore without significance to anyone else?
Do tell now, how many "fingers" are in your "hand-breadth", and within each of your cubits, both the common and the great, and greater, and by what measure you measure the depths, have you yet plumbed the matter of fifteen fathoms and of twenty fathoms the sum thereof, the difference thereof, and the precise divisions thereof?
A different conclusion? certainly, for there is very, very much that is available to illumine the story.
But just to keep the numbers small, can you conceive of a "half" of an entire, or "full" day?
How many "half" days do you find then to be in three full days?
And in three and a half days? And what proportion of "fifteen" days is three days? and of "twenty one" days?
The question has been posed of old; "Are your ways equal?"

"Shesh-batzar"

...you saying anything about fingers and toes. What you said was as follows:

I wonder, how many here have taken the time to look up all the usages of "three days" in the Bible?

If you believe there exist cryptic number patterns in the bible that bear any pertinence to Jesus' Resurrection on the third day and are itching to say so, then just say so and quit wasting my time.

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Sheshbazzar · 12-06-2008, 12:39 PM

so

The Dagda · 12-06-2008, 12:50 PM

Has anyone considered that placing the day on a Sunday had religious implications and was not tied to the three day event. I think we have to consider that the church were not morons, and did not wish to make this an issue. They simply went for the usual symbolism and sanctity of the Sabbath for religious reasons. After all the date itself is tied to the first full moon after the new moon of the vernal the equinox, which coincided with the festivals of the Celts and passover in the Jewish calender. If they didn't care what date it was on above and beyond supplanting other religions, I doubt they were too concerned about tying such festivals in with precision. Just a thought?

Sheshbazzar · 12-06-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavy_wonder1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

One can only hope then, that others might be a wee bit more perceptive about the bulk that you so blithely dismiss.

You can do it for yourself then, and test your own perceptiveness:

Third day

Three days

Really not that hard.

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Spin, who opened this thread, didn't just fall off the back of a turnip truck yesterday, he knows, as do most others here, that a "WORD STUDY" consist of much more than just clicking on some site and using your computers cut-and-paste function.
Do you know the original terms, and how they relate to other Hebrew idioms?
Your grasp of the authors intents by the usage of particular idioms is so superficial, that you have no grasp at all, with perhaps 99% of what you read (in English yet) passing right on over your head.
But as you are unaware of that fact, you expect everyone else to equally oblivious. pitiful
Spin is not so ignorant, maybe obstinate at times

, but far from ignorant.

spin · 12-06-2008, 01:25 PM

Let me stress that what I'm looking at is the tradition seen in the textual evidence.

It is clear that the source of both Matthew and Luke had "after three days" and that has been changed in the later gospels.

Code:

      Mark                      Matthew              Luke
8:31  after three days   16:21  on the third day   9:22  on the third day
9:31  after three days¹  17:23  on the third day   9:44  --
10:34 after three days   20:19  on the third day   18:33 on the third day

¹ This has been corrected in the Byzantine tradition to "on the third day".

This is evidence that the wording "on the third day" (th trith hmera & var.) is the preferred post-Marcan form in the evolving gospel tradition. Mark indicates that "after three days" was the received form. Matthew and Luke shows that there was a change in preferred form.

spin

spin · 12-06-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavy_wonder1

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

After the little apocalypse in chapter 13, waiting for the end. It's my reading.

I'm interested in seeing how you would make this case. Care to share?

Just a few ideas here. Change in style. Change in narrative technique(s). The discussion of the end and the admonish to "keep alert", repeated three times (33 agrupneite, 35 grhgoreite, 37 grhgoreite -- grhgorew being a significant theological term in itself) and the breaking of the messianic secret.

I'll withdraw the statement from the discussion and ask for it to be disregarded as it is not important to the discussion of the after three days/on the third day change.

spin

truth_child · 12-06-2008, 02:36 PM

toto since you do not consider i have sense enough to hald a discussion then i want post any more

truth_child · 12-06-2008, 02:39 PM

toto excuse me before you have something to say about my typing i know it has a lot od typos and im sorry i meant to say since you do not consider that i have sense enough to hold a conversation then i want post any more

12-06-2008, 01:25 PM	#27
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Let me stress that what I'm looking at is the tradition seen in the textual evidence. It is clear that the source of both Matthew and Luke had "after three days" and that has been changed in the later gospels. Code: Mark Matthew Luke 8:31 after three days 16:21 on the third day 9:22 on the third day 9:31 after three days¹ 17:23 on the third day 9:44 -- 10:34 after three days 20:19 on the third day 18:33 on the third day ¹ This has been corrected in the Byzantine tradition to "on the third day". This is evidence that the wording "on the third day" (th trith hmera & var.) is the preferred post-Marcan form in the evolving gospel tradition. Mark indicates that "after three days" was the received form. Matthew and Luke shows that there was a change in preferred form. spin

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12-06-2008, 12:39 PM	#24
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	so

12-06-2008, 12:50 PM	#25
The Dagda Banned Join Date: May 2008 Location: England, Portsmouth Posts: 5,108	Has anyone considered that placing the day on a Sunday had religious implications and was not tied to the three day event. I think we have to consider that the church were not morons, and did not wish to make this an issue. They simply went for the usual symbolism and sanctity of the Sabbath for religious reasons. After all the date itself is tied to the first full moon after the new moon of the vernal the equinox, which coincided with the festivals of the Celts and passover in the Jewish calender. If they didn't care what date it was on above and beyond supplanting other religions, I doubt they were too concerned about tying such festivals in with precision. Just a thought?

12-06-2008, 02:36 PM	#29
truth_child Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: spartanburg. s.c. Posts: 17	toto since you do not consider i have sense enough to hald a discussion then i want post any more

12-06-2008, 02:39 PM	#30
truth_child Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: spartanburg. s.c. Posts: 17	toto excuse me before you have something to say about my typing i know it has a lot od typos and im sorry i meant to say since you do not consider that i have sense enough to hold a conversation then i want post any more

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