Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tom Sawyer · 05-18-2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

As for the MJ side - they will, sooner or later, have to accept the reality that history matters. Without a foothold in reality, ideas are just pie in the sky and have no inherent claim on longevity...

I don't know about this one. Sometimes stories take off. I doubt, for instance, that there was ever a real person whom Thor was based of off and the idea came from making a personification of a deity to explain where thunder and storms came from. Over the years, various attributes were assigned to that personification and stories about him invented and you've eventually got a whole mythology.

aa5874 · 05-18-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

You and I appear to be having two separate and unrelated conversations. :huh:

It does indeed seem so. You now appear to be talking about an imaginary Jesus--a Jesus with NO history. Your Jesus is UNRELATED to any dated documents.

I am talking about the Documented Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of a Ghost, God the Creator, baptized by John, that Walked on water, Transfigured, crucified under Pilate, resurrected and ascended in DATED Codices.

Please IDENTIFY the source for your Jesus. What did your Jesus do in YOUR source of antiquity??? Where did your Jesus live in YOUR source of antiquity???

Please give the name of the book of antiquity, the chapter, the paragraph????

You have NOTHING!!!

Your Jesus is UNRELATED to any actual evidence or source of antiquity.

Tom Sawyer · 05-18-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

You and I appear to be having two separate and unrelated conversations. :huh:

It does indeed seem so. You now appear to be talking about an imaginary Jesus--a Jesus with NO history. Your Jesus is UNRELATED to any dated documents.

I am talking about the Documented Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of a Ghost, God the Creator, baptized by John, that Walked on water, Transfigured, crucified under Pilate, resurrected and ascended in DATED Codices.

Please IDENTIFY the source for your Jesus. What did your Jesus do in YOUR source of antiquity??? Where did your Jesus live in YOUR source of antiquity???

Please give the name of the book of antiquity, the chapter, the paragraph????

You have NOTHING!!!

Your Jesus is UNRELATED to any actual evidence or source of antiquity.

This is what I mean about our conversations not being related. :huh:

I discussed all of these. Try having a conversation with someone else.

aa5874 · 05-18-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Yes, one might imagine it but it doesn't therefore follow that there's a rationale for it. Something happened to start the Jesus stories and we have ourselves some third-hand accounts of what that something might have been, so there are flimsy and unsupported conclusions which we can draw from that. For other mythical characters, we don't have these third-hand accounts from a couple generations later made by people with a distinct political agenda behind spreading the stories, so the potential historical nature of their existence isn't as well supported as Jesus's is....

Again, you have ASSUMED that there were Jesus stories in the 1st century when you have NOTHING about Jesus that has been dated by Paleography or C14 to the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

You are using Imaginary evidence. We have DATED accounts from the 2nd century and those are the FIRST, the very FIRST DATED accounts of the Jesus story.

We cannot assume that we have third hand accounts.

We cannot assume that there is other evidence when at the present time we have NONE.

Theories about the Past cannot be re-constructed from Imagination.

Theories about the Past are DEVELOPED with the ACTUAL Dated evidence and the THEORIES ARE MODIFIED when new CREDIBLE is found.

That is basic.

DATA FIRST---THEORY NEXT.

NO DATA--NO THEORY.

NO DATA for an historical Jesus---No historical Jesus theory.

There is an ABUNDANCE of Evidence for Myth Jesus.

Jesus was was described as the Son of a Ghost and it was Modified by gJohn--Jesus was the Creator of heaven and earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

...We know that characters are made up and we know that stories about people can get embellished. What we don't have evidence of either way is which of these was the case with Jesus and all that we have is whatever unsupported supposition we decide to put too much weight on.

Well, there can be NO HJ argument once it is admitted that there is NO evidence to support it.

Matthew 1.18-20, Luke 1.26-35, Mark 6.48-49, Mark 9.2, Acts 1 and Galatians 1 is documented, dated and support the Myth Jesus theory.

Tom Sawyer · 05-18-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Yes, one might imagine it but it doesn't therefore follow that there's a rationale for it. Something happened to start the Jesus stories and we have ourselves some third-hand accounts of what that something might have been, so there are flimsy and unsupported conclusions which we can draw from that. For other mythical characters, we don't have these third-hand accounts from a couple generations later made by people with a distinct political agenda behind spreading the stories, so the potential historical nature of their existence isn't as well supported as Jesus's is....

Again, you have ASSUMED that there were Jesus stories in the 1st century when you have NOTHING about Jesus that has been dated by Paleography or C14 to the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

You are using Imaginary evidence. We have DATED accounts from the 2nd century and those are the FIRST, the very FIRST DATED accounts of the Jesus story.

We cannot assume that we have third hand accounts.

We cannot assume that there is other evidence when at the present time we have NONE.

Theories about the Past cannot be re-constructed from Imagination.

Theories about the Past are DEVELOPED with the ACTUAL Dated evidence and the THEORIES ARE MODIFIED when new CREDIBLE is found.

Right. That's what I said.

aa5874 · 05-18-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Yes, one might imagine it but it doesn't therefore follow that there's a rationale for it. Something happened to start the Jesus stories and we have ourselves some third-hand accounts of what that something might have been, so there are flimsy and unsupported conclusions which we can draw from that. For other mythical characters, we don't have these third-hand accounts from a couple generations later made by people with a distinct political agenda behind spreading the stories, so the potential historical nature of their existence isn't as well supported as Jesus's is....

Again, you have ASSUMED that there were Jesus stories in the 1st century when you have NOTHING about Jesus that has been dated by Paleography or C14 to the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

You are using Imaginary evidence. We have DATED accounts from the 2nd century and those are the FIRST, the very FIRST DATED accounts of the Jesus story.

We cannot assume that we have third hand accounts.

We cannot assume that there is other evidence when at the present time we have NONE.

Theories about the Past cannot be re-constructed from Imagination.

Theories about the Past are DEVELOPED with the ACTUAL Dated evidence and the THEORIES ARE MODIFIED when new CREDIBLE is found.

Right. That's what I said.

]

No, No, No!!! You said we have two seperate and UNRELATED conversations. You want to take credit for what I just Posted???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

You and I appear to be having two separate and unrelated conversations..

Please IDENTIFY the source for YOUR Jesus that was NOT the Son of a Ghost, was NOT God the Creator, was NOT baptized as described, did NOT walk on water, did NOT Transfigure, was NOT crucified as described, did NOT resurrect and did NOT ascend????

Your need to sort out your conversation!! You need to present the source of antiquity for YOUR human Jesus.

Tom Sawyer · 05-18-2012, 01:08 PM

This is what I mean about our conversations being unrelated. You don't seem to be responding to anything I'm saying.

Given that we don't seem to be discussing the same subject, we can feel free to just stop not doing so and talk to other people.

aa5874 · 05-18-2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

I don't know about this one. Sometimes stories take off. I doubt, for instance, that there was ever a real person whom Thor was based of off and the idea came from making a personification of a deity to explain where thunder and storms came from. Over the years, various attributes were assigned to that personification and stories about him invented and you've eventually got a whole mythology.

Again, where is the ACTUAL dated evidence for your PRESUMPTIONS??

Over what years???

Who told you that various attributes were assigned to Jesus OVER THE YEARS???

Don't you see that your conversation is UNRELATED to any Evidence of antiquity??

Your conversation is RELATED to FAITH.

The Conversation of Creationist are RELATED to yours when they talk about ADAM and EVE.

Tom Sawyer · 05-18-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

I don't know about this one. Sometimes stories take off. I doubt, for instance, that there was ever a real person whom Thor was based of off and the idea came from making a personification of a deity to explain where thunder and storms came from. Over the years, various attributes were assigned to that personification and stories about him invented and you've eventually got a whole mythology.

Again, where is the ACTUAL dated evidence for your PRESUMPTIONS??

Over what years???

Who told you that various attributes were assigned to Jesus OVER THE YEARS???

Don't you see that your conversation is UNRELATED to any Evidence of antiquity??

Your conversation is RELATED to FAITH.

The Conversation of Creationist are RELATED to yours when they talk about ADAM and EVE.

Ummm ... ya? :huh:

I've been saying that the HJ position is a baseless guess. How many baseless guesses do you feel that there are which are based on actual evidence?

aa5874 · 05-18-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

I don't know about this one. Sometimes stories take off. I doubt, for instance, that there was ever a real person whom Thor was based of off and the idea came from making a personification of a deity to explain where thunder and storms came from. Over the years, various attributes were assigned to that personification and stories about him invented and you've eventually got a whole mythology.

Again, where is the ACTUAL dated evidence for your PRESUMPTIONS??

Over what years???

Who told you that various attributes were assigned to Jesus OVER THE YEARS???

Don't you see that your conversation is UNRELATED to any Evidence of antiquity??

Your conversation is RELATED to FAITH.

The Conversation of Creationist are RELATED to yours when they talk about ADAM and EVE.

Ummm ... ya? :huh:

You appear to have a separate and unrelated conversation.

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05-18-2012, 01:08 PM	#107
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	This is what I mean about our conversations being unrelated. You don't seem to be responding to anything I'm saying. Given that we don't seem to be discussing the same subject, we can feel free to just stop not doing so and talk to other people.

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