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Old 01-01-2008, 06:09 PM   #91
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Speculation is speculation. When a community of scholars who devote their careers to the question examine the evidence behind the speculation, discuss and argue among themselves, and decide what is most probable, you have a consensus of experts, and if the process works, the consensus has some reasons and facts that make it a probable explanation (until some young iconoclast comes along and upsets it all).

Acharya's speculation has not gone through this process. She has read some interesting books from the 19th century and repeated their allegations. She has not engaged (as far as I know, and up to now) with other scholars who can challenge her ideas and force her to refine them. What she says might have value, or might be true, but probably has at least a few factual errors, slip ups, etc.
Yes, but that's not what Acharya does,
What she apparently does not do is to attempt to publish in peer reviewed journals or through academic presses or actively engage scholars. Has she tried to present her "work" at actual academic conferences where the history of religions are discussed?

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her work has been challenged all over the place, including by various scholars, for the past decade.
Can you please name these "various scholars" who have challenged her "work" and where their challenges have appeared?

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In fact, she's dug into the oldest sources she can find - and the most modern ones as well, and everything in between.
Everything? If her bibliography is anything to go by, she's not even scratched the surface of what's out there. And how do you know that she's dug into "everything in between". Do you have the familiarity with the nature and extent of these "sources" that is recquiste for your claim to be accurate?

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She reads the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek, and she also studies the originals of the writings of the Church fathers where appropriate. She even quotes these writings in their original languages, especially in her more recent works. And, in doing so, she's backed up the contentions that may or may not have been found in "19th century books."
May or may not have been found??? Don't you know. Are you now admitting that you do not know whethere there were works from 19th century scholars that parallel AS's "work" and theses? If so, this would mean that you are hardly qualified to make any claims about AS's "work" being original, let alone an advance on previous mootings of her theses or as showing that she is at all in touch with the relevant scholarship on the matters she discusses.

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Old 01-01-2008, 06:25 PM   #92
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So, there is no evidence that any sun-worshipping sect actually used such a phrase in describing their beliefs?



But is it mythology she has created or mythology that can be shown to have actually existed?
If you actually studied the subject, you would know whether or not this mythology is ancient.
And what study of "the subject" (i.e. ancient mythologies) have you actually done that allows you to claim, as you do, that "Acharya did not "create" any mythology"? Has it been in the primary sources or only in secondary literature? Has it been in any literature at all? If so, what?

What qualifies you as an an authority on (ancient) mythology? Do you hold a degree in it? Have you had any formal training in this field? Do you read the languages in which ancient mythographers wrote?

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Old 01-01-2008, 07:21 PM   #93
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I'm not sure if this thread is on track at this point.

Are people arguing that her credentials are invalid and, therefore, anything written and published by her are "made up" and equally invalid?

Reading her biography, she seems extraordinarily well-educated and (I would presuppose) not many here are anywhere near her level of achievement...if it isn't a forgery (which I would have expected should have been exposed during the past ten years or so she has been on the scene).

I mean I really have no dog in this hunt and last read The Christ Conspiracy around seven years ago, but this current theme of dog piling and ad hom is really not a qualified examination of her work one way or the other...though people seem to have made quite a few presuppositions.

Is it that folks here in this thread want some sort of Theological Seminary Council to support her thesis?

Can anyone provide a list of atheist or, better yet, pantheist theological scholars whose credentials would be acceptable to validate her assorted claims?

There is more than one trick bag being presented here, in my view, and quite a bit of tail chasing.

I've read her book, it was a better than decent expose for the layman and really does get people on track to at least question religious claims and religious history.

Ultimately, it is a mixture of academia, physical research and her own philosophy...much like the work of Carrier, Hitchens, Dawkins and others.

The difference between atheists, pantheists, deists, humanists and organized religion is that we don't get our authority to seek answers from representatives presenting dogma...we go and find them ourselves.

My personal disagreement with Acharya S is her reliance on equally unfalsifiable mystic gibberish reflected here:

God

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One can think of God as the life force or sentience that permeates the cosmos - gravity or levity, it matters not. As an example of such an energy, one can take a plug and stick it into an electrical outlet - this "zapping" is what becoming spiritual is all about. One becomes plugged into "God." But think about that electrical life force: It has no form. In other words, it's not a human being.
and:

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The creative/destructive mechanism of this all-encompassing life force can be called the "cosmic mind" or the "universal mind." This cosmic mind projects its thoughts into form; hence, reality could be called "God's Dream." But this dream includes the fragmentation of the Divine into seemingly dense objects and entities that have a will and independence of their own. As separate entities, we are nonetheless connected atomically to this life force, but the individual ego separates itself into a deluded state. This delusion, or maya, can become so strong that the creative life force is limited and the entity in which this spark exists no longer knows that it is "God." This delusion, which can be called "Satan" if personified, is how existence creates, by separating itself out of the whole and presenting the illusion of the many. But this delusion/ego/Satan is not anything bad until it is so separate and dense that it no longer sees itself all around but sees "other," which it is then free to harm if need be or desire arises.
I'm no validated theological scholar...but that is one big load of unsupported and unsubstantiated hooey laden with sexed up wishful thinking.

In any event, I don't think the world needs another World Pantheist Movement or Theosophical Society formed around a central "papal" authority ala Paul Harrison or Krishnamurti.

YMMV
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Old 01-01-2008, 07:32 PM   #94
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If you actually studied the subject, you would know whether or not this mythology is ancient.
If you were genuinely interested in correcting what you consider a mistaken impression of Acharya S, you would answer my questions rather than dodge them.

You bitch about people saying things you consider untrue about her but refuse to answer straightforward questions about the evidenciary basis for her claims? :huh: I would think this to be exactly the opportunity you wanted.

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Acharya did not "create" any mythology...
So there is evidence of a sun-worshipping sect actually using such a phrase in describing their beliefs? Where?
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Old 01-01-2008, 07:37 PM   #95
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One can think of God as the life force or sentience that permeates the cosmos - gravity or levity, it matters not. As an example of such an energy, one can take a plug and stick it into an electrical outlet - this "zapping" is what becoming spiritual is all about. One becomes plugged into "God." But think about that electrical life force: It has no form. In other words, it's not a human being.
Hmmm, makes me think of an old fashioned charismatic tent revival conversion experience, one described in an updated, more-or-less inoffensive terminology. Welllll — inoffensive to some...
To clarify: I think of all conversion experiences as being charismatic in the sense that one is filled to bursting with ________ (fill in the blank). They are identical in that they are a "feeling" that carries no information, the information being supplied after the fact by the cultural/community that surrounds the convert.
(Edited for "clarification" in the hope that sheer shock won't stupify the reader.)
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Old 01-01-2008, 07:42 PM   #96
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Freethinkaluva, I know I have said this before, but I strongly suggest that you stop making ad hominem arguments your primary tools of debate. This includes answering challenges and claims with accusations that the person has not read Acharya's material. You can make that claim (or maybe just make it a suggestion), but what should be most important to you is to fulfill the challenge, answer the inquiry, or contradict the claim with evidence in your favor. The fact that the other guy didn't read Acharya S's books should be secondary to you. Does this make sense?
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:15 PM   #97
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I'm not sure if this thread is on track at this point.

Are people arguing that her credentials are invalid and, therefore, anything written and published by her are "made up" and equally invalid?
Be careful not to buy into the claims made by Acharya's followers about the criticisms made against Acharya. I've found that when Acharya or one of her followers are asked to back up specific claims, the questioner gets accused of all sorts of things rather than having their questions answered.

Cults are known for being highly defensive and sensitive to criticisms. Let's just see how Freethinkaluva and others from Acharya's forum handle questions.
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:42 PM   #98
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Reading her biography, she seems extraordinarily well-educated
She does?? Does she possess anything beyond a BA?

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Old 01-02-2008, 12:05 AM   #99
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<adit>
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:43 AM   #100
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I'm not sure if this thread is on track at this point.

Are people arguing that her credentials are invalid and, therefore, anything written and published by her are "made up" and equally invalid?
Be careful not to buy into the claims made by Acharya's followers about the criticisms made against Acharya. I've found that when Acharya or one of her followers are asked to back up specific claims, the questioner gets accused of all sorts of things rather than having their questions answered.

Cults are known for being highly defensive and sensitive to criticisms. Let's just see how Freethinkaluva and others from Acharya's forum handle questions.
I notice that some members of this forum "critiquing" Acharya's work are devoid of backing up their specific claims also. When questioned to their total knowledge of her work, they either ignore the question, rant and rave about "credentials" and similar diversions. Or they resort to calling people "cultists". I would be careful not to take "critiquers" of her work too seriously, because they know next to nothing about it or the mythology behind religon.
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