Toto

This is so twisted I am calling a foul.

Layman has provided a ridiculous contortion of the original question.

The proposition is that if the only evidence of an person's existence is in a religious document, that is not much evidence, especially when the religion has a history of fabrication.

Obviously, Christians did not invent Herod or Pilate, who were well known political figures (although they invented a new persona for Pilate.)

The question before you is whether the Christians invented the three magi who allegedly followed a star that violated the laws of nature to worship the infant Jesus. There is no attestation outside of Matthew, and Matthew's story is so obviously a fable that Matthew is no attestation at all. Are you going to defend this fable or are you going to admit that there is a possibility that a gospel writer made something up?

I can add that some Christians want to defend the possibility of this scene:

Reasons not to take this story seriously as history are outlined here.

Layman

Are you putting on your Moderator hat here Toto? If so, you are being ridiculous and petty.

Actually, I made a counterpoint.

When did that become the proposition?

And James, Paul, Barnabas, Peter, Timothy? I mentioned plenty of people who are not major historical figures. You are the one who is distorting the original position.

Actually, were three questions before me Toto, including this one: Would Christians have invented people who did not exist in reality?

My counterpoint was clear, they refer to plenty of real people that they did not make up.

You have done yourself a disserve here, Toto. And if acting as a Moderator you have done the SecWeb a disservice. You distorted the original questions and my list of persons mentioned by early Christians beyond any reasonable bounds. All to take cheap shots at me.

Toto

Nope. When I do, I will let you know.

The OP asked about the magi. You treid to change the subject by listing other characters.

That is not a counterpoint. Showing that some characters in a historical novel actually existed does not prove that all of the characters in a historical novel existed. That is where your logic is twisted.

I know, I'm staying up too late wasting time on this board again.

The original question(s) asked if Christians ever invented characters, namely the Magi. You are very practiced at avoiding questions and trying to control the dialogue, and you have avoided mentioning those embarrassing Magi by talking about characters that were not invented.

Vinnie

So when I post something embarrassing//against the grain about Jesus and someone says in response it was embarrassing//against the grain that "achilles got shot in the heel" they are changing the subject right?

Woops, just took this thread further off topic...

Layman

Well, please be clear. Talking about "having" to intercede to cry "foul" sounds suspiciously like being a Moderator.

The OP broadened the question and I offered counterpoints.

I did not say it proved all of the characters existed.

Spare me the whining about my tactics.

I'm not embarassed by the Magi, but I recognize that their existence is not well attested by historical evidence.

Come clean. Toto. By mentioning James, Peter, Priscilla and Acquilla, Timothy, and Barnabas I was not referring only to famous people. Not even mostly.

Vinnie

Re the birth narratives. I see a lot of creativity here.

But what the Jesus skeptics forget to tell you is that the infancy narrative material is somewhat different from a lot of the rest of the Gospel material which consists largely of individual and movable pericopes.

Vinnie

contracycle

Yeesh.

Magus: 1 a : a member of a hereditary priestly class among the ancient Medes and Persians

Whether or not the such priests actually attended the birth of a notional Jesus is a rather different question.

Toto

Come clean about what? You were trying to change the subject from the Magi to some relatively noncontroversial characters.

We know that the gospel writers worked some real people into their stories. Does that have any bearing at all on whether they also invented some characters? No, it does not.

If you're not embarrassed by the Magi, tell us more about them.

Layman

Your distortion of my list of nonfictional characters in the Gospels/Acts. I mentioned several of the "little" people and you acted as if I only mentioned well-known historical figures.

Layman

What's to tell? All I know about them is what is provided in the Gospel of Matthew.