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Old 08-14-2009, 10:34 AM   #11
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Mark is not nearly as creative as it could be.
I thought that whole "Barabbas" thing was pretty creative. Another character that seems like a "second gunman".
Jesus swapping Bible verses in the desert with Satan is quite creative.

And having Moses and Elijah come back to speak to Jesus is quite creative.

I can only imagine what I might read if some Muslims started to believe that Muhammad had returned and spoken to some members of a new Muslim sect.

Paul says Jews stumbled at a crucified Messiah.

Heaven knows how they would have reacted to claims that Moses had appeared to members of this new sect.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:40 AM   #12
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Since it's relevant to this thread, here is John Dominic Crossan on the whole Joseph of Arimathea character's role:

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Mark's story presented the tradition with double dilemmas. First, if Joseph was in the council, he was against Jesus; if he was for Jesus, he was not in the council. Second, if Joseph buried Jesus from piety or duty, he would have done the same for the two other crucified criminals; yet if he did that, there could be no empty tomb sequence. None of these points is unanswerable, but together they persuade me that Mark created that burial by Joseph of Arimathea in 15:42-47. It contains no pre-Markan tradition
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:22 PM   #13
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It isn't a particularly strange Greek transliteration of Ramoth, so I really don't see the value in pretending that there is something wrong with the name Arimathea.

Peter.
So no other person ever used that Greek transliteration of Ramoth?
Unless you can show why a minor difference in transliteration is a big deal, then I don't think you have a non-silly point to make.

Peter.
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:30 PM   #14
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Here is spin's take:
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Yup. Anyone interested can check out the LXX of Jos 20:8. The Hebrew mentions R)MT, ie Ramoth, but the LXX has ARHMWQ. 1 Sam 1:19 talks of Ramah (=height, Ramoth is a plural of this), while the LXX ARMAQAIM. The genitive form found in the gospels, eg Mat 27:57, is ARIMAQAIAS.


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I recall some discussion of why Joseph was from "the heights" - something symbolic.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:42 PM   #15
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So no other person ever used that Greek transliteration of Ramoth?
Unless you can show why a minor difference in transliteration is a big deal, then I don't think you have a non-silly point to make.

Peter.
So Peter agrees that nobody has ever found a town called by that Greek word.

Here is the word in Mark 15:43 Ἁριμαθαίας

Here is the word in Joshua 20:8 Αρημωθ (A minor difference?)

And here is Ramoth in 2 Chronicles 18:19 Ραμωθ

Why is Ἁριμαθαίας the same place as Ἁριμαθαίας when the Gospels are the only Greek works ever to use Ἁριμαθαίας?

Josephus calls the city Arimanon or Aramatha(h) (Ant., 4:173; 8:399; 9:105).

So there was no such place as Arimathea.
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:28 AM   #16
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Since it's relevant to this thread, here is John Dominic Crossan on the whole Joseph of Arimathea character's role:

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Mark's story presented the tradition with double dilemmas. First, if Joseph was in the council, he was against Jesus; if he was for Jesus, he was not in the council. Second, if Joseph buried Jesus from piety or duty, he would have done the same for the two other crucified criminals; yet if he did that, there could be no empty tomb sequence. None of these points is unanswerable, but together they persuade me that Mark created that burial by Joseph of Arimathea in 15:42-47. It contains no pre-Markan tradition
I was thinking about this.

Taking Mark's account on its own, (without making use of material from John), the reason why Joseph does not ask Pilate late that Friday afternoon for the bodies of the two other crucified criminals is that the unfortunate men are apparently still alive. They presumably died sometime on the sabbath and would either have been disposed of there and then by the Romans or left until a Jewish request for the remains during working hours on Sunday.

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