Plognark

Many deserts, especially those in the midwest United States, are prone to devestating flash floods when it does rain, far worse than higher rainfall areas.

So, yeah, just thought that might help.

Chaupoline

Thanks, I know that there are flash floods in the lowlands of Arizona, but nothing that would occur on such a large scale that could be considered a global flood.

Plognark

Doesn't seem that hard to go from a moderate flood to a global flood through exageration and ancestral or spreading stories. Human imagination and all.

newtype_alpha

That still fails to explain the presence of the Nephilim in the time of King David.

Also, you are drawing a very false parellel comparing this to the Greek version; Prometheus was the protagonist in this version, stealing fire from the gods and giving it to humans to help them prosper. Prometheus was severely punished for this, but was eventually released by Hercules. If you were to draw that parellel in Christian mythology, you would have to subscribe to a much more literal interpretation of Enoch; that the Grigori forsook holiness for the love of humanity against God's decree, and for their crime of passion were destroyed along with their offspring. Then your "lucifer" implication (In fact "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14 refers to the King of Babylon, but since we ARE discussing mythology...) it would mean that in the end times, Jesus--bringer of Justice that he is--will eventually release Lucifer and get even with the asshole deity who tossed them all into the drink in the first place. :devil3:

This one contains only one element: a flood, and then not even a global one since it originates from the overflowing of a river.

This one only contains the element of punishment. This is not even the "great flood" of Navajo Mythology; their flood story (in summary) goes something like:
There are actually about six different Hopi creation myths that I have read. This is actually a more modern version resulting from the mix of two distinct tribes (this version is controversial to BOTH of them). All of the others mention a flood of some kind connected with a creation event, mainly because the Hopi and the Navajo coexist in almost the same area. (I understand there is some sort of a land dispute between the two at the moment). Most of the other Hopi myths reference an under-world flood, and humans arrived in THIS world to escape the ones in the lower level (possibly a reference to ground water channels both Hopi and Navajo sometimes used for their water supply).

For every mythological parellel there are at least a dozen contradictions. This does not mean that any of the myths are false in their own right, it simply means that no one myth describes a single, global event. Any event that COULD have originated all of these myths obviously did not occur in the same way in all places. Different gods were involved in each, and each for different reasons and in different behaviors. What the gods represent may be common in all cultures, but the events, religious ideals, even the gods themselves, are not.

Chaupoline

The Nephilim also were present in the Wilderness of Sin during the Exodus. In terms of mythology, the great flood stopped the Nephilim from being a major power in the world of humanity. I think that God gave the land of Canaan to the Tribes of Israel because this was the land of the Giants. This would explain why God instructed Joshua to kill everyone in the land of Canaan and why God was angry when they let some of them live.

I used the Prometheus story to show a parallel with the Grigori. If we were going to believe that the Grigori were real, then they would have passed themselves off as Gods to the rest of humanity. The Olympians partook in practices much like the Enochian Grigori, they bred with the Greeks and produced their demigods and acted in immoral ways.

I had heard another one where the Hopi Noah went up a mountain to escape the flood and when he came down he threw stones behind him and they turned into people. The Hopi have a lot of colorful stories and like all the other myths I do not believe that they are to be taken literally. They are just to pass down wisdom.

It is like the game of telephone, except the practicioners are not out to completely sabotauge the message. Oral traditions change slightly as time passes on. I do not believe in Coyote or Zeus. I do believe that there was a Great Flood that was chronicled all over the world. I do not know if there was only Noah's family that survived or if there were survivors all over the world.

newtype_alpha

Given that this were true, wouldn't the ancient Hebrews have had to have some exceptional abilities of their own in order to compete with them? (Again I make reference to Simeon and Levi single handedly sacking an entire city).

Good point, although to take either story as literal would require a deeper analysis and considering the different points of view. Basically, it would be like trying to distinguish between two historical accounts and filtering the propaganda from the facts. That's tricky enough even with MODERN sources. :devil3:

Haven't heard the mountain one; there's a good chance it was borrowed from Greek mythology though, as has happened in a number of other cases.

I don't doubt that the middle eastern flood myths might have a common origin--in fact, they very well might since nearly all of them coincide to about 2500 BC. The thing is I don't believe it was a global event because most of the ohter flood myths are dated at the earliest some hundreds or even thousands of years later than the first Mesopotamian myths, but what they do have during those same periods are a number of even weirder stories that have nothing to do with a flood myth but might suggest other, more interesting ideas. (multiple impacts by comet fragments, for instance). It's important to keep in mind, as well, that no matter how many parellels some of these myths contain, many of the similar references are used in entirely different contexts with entirely different meanings to the people.

Sven

I don't want to wade through loads of creationists bullshit (the third link is from ICR, the other two also look crappy), so could you just give one or two examples?
And please note that if we threw Uniformitarianism over board, we could as well stop any work about the past.
And there's good evidence from cosmology that Uniformitarianism (that is, that the laws and constants of nature did not change, I presume) is indeed true.

Chaupoline

They had the Ark of the Covenant.

[QUOTE=newtype_alpha]Good point, although to take either story as literal would require a deeper analysis and considering the different points of view. Basically, it would be like trying to distinguish between two historical accounts and filtering the propaganda from the facts. That's tricky enough even with MODERN sources. :devil3:

I am also intrigued by the bearded white guy myth too. Egypt's Osiris was a bearded white guy, as was the Coatzlcoatl of Mexico and the Incan's Viracocha. They all came down to teach their respective groups people agriculture and civilization.

Yeah, I see a number of parallels with all the cultures but the people themselves are unique in their outlook regarding the world. This is also the way it is in all the denominations of Christianity as time passes on. There isn't a untied Christianity anymore. There is just a lot of diffrent groups that keep separating from one another.

J-D

I was going to ask charis the question: 'If the conclusion of the Parable of the Pounds doesn't mean that Jesus will have his enemies put to death, what does it mean?'--but I see that it has already been asked. I look forward to an answer.

J-D

Chaupoline, you said that God only created the laws of nature, he doesn't micromanage the Universe.

Why doesn't he?

When he created the laws of nature, did he know what results they would produce? And if he didn't, why wouldn't he correct unintended consequences when they emerged? Even if we accept your account, it still seems to me that God is responsible for the creation and existence of the rabies virus.

Also, it won't do to say that God left it up to us to find a cure for rabies. Rabies affects non-human animals as well as humans. And what about the distemper virus? Distemper affects only non-human animals. What justification can there be for God afflicting non-human animals?

Changing the subject, if you think the Bible offers good advice, what do you make of Proverbs 26:4, which says 'Answer not a fool according to his folly', and Proverbs 26:5, which says 'Answer a fool according to his folly'?