Minimalist

I distrust ALL ancient stats regarding body counts, especially Josephus who seems to have a personal mission to make Judaea into a vital cog in the Roman empire instead of a minor region that they continually tried to push off on some member of the Herod family to run.

We have a list of Roman Governors of Syria:

23 – 13 BC Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
13/12 – 10/9 BC Marcus Titius
10/9 – 7/6 BC Gaius Sentius Saturninus
7/6 – 4 BC Publius Quinctilius Varus
4 – 1 BC Unknown [1]
1 BC – 4 Gaius Julius Caesar Vipsanianus
4 – 5 Lucius Volusius Saturninus
6 – 9 Publius Sulpicius Quirinius


Could Varus term have been extended because of the trouble? Sure. All it would take was Augustus' order saying so. But Gaius Caesar and Volusius Saturninus sneak in ahead of Quirinius and to the best of my recollection neither are mentioned by Josephus. Do we disregard them, too?

I'm not ready to re-write Roman history to satisfy xtian fanatics who can't deal with the fact that their supposedly inerrant gospels contradict themselves.

aa5874

You have no evidence for what you say.

Jesus was born of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin in gMatthew and gLuke what is the rational explanation for such a birth?

Sorry!!

They are just MYTH FABLES that people believed in Antiquity.

What is the rational explanation for Marcion's Phantom?

Sorry!!

It is just a MYTH fable that people believed in antiquity.

Marcion did NOT need HEROD TO invent a PHANTOM.

maryhelena

And it's all a storyline created out of thin air - wild imagination - fantasy upon fantasy - but, aa5874, to say that this storyline came to be believed to be a true historical account is one thing - to claim that that is what the writers of the storyline believed is something else entirely. Discarding the storyline re ghosts and phantoms is simply the first step in an attempt to discern what exactly the writers were endeavoring to accomplish with their gospel storyline. And if that was, as I am suggesting, an interpretation, a very Jewish interpretation of history, then that is what it's necessary to do - try and establish just what the history of the relevant gospel time period was....

maryhelena

Undoubtedly, Josephus would have no qualms about exaggerating numbers - and the extent of the uprising after the death of Herod the Great. But that there would be some sort of trouble is very possible. And of course, with both Archelaus and Antipas off to Rome to fight over their inheritance - opportunity knocks for any crackpots who think they will find glory in challenging Rome.

Interesting, re the 4 b.c. - 1 b.c. 'unknown' in your list. Perhaps the time of Varus was extended - perhaps Josephus has some motive in wanting it to be seen that Herod died in 4 b.c. Whatever the case - by moving the death of Herod the Great to 1 b.c it opens up a very different perspective on the rule of Philip the Tetrarch. Thus, it's what moving the date for Herod's death can suggest that is the interesting fall out from the 1 b.c. date. If the 4 b.c. date is viewed as set in stone - then so too is Herodian history for the first century - and methinks that is just too much credit to be giving to a prophetic historian....

'xtian fanatics' are neither my interest or concern....sure, the 1 b.c. date for Herod's death might seem to give them a glimmer of hope for their assumed historical gospel JC - but its bright sunshine they need not a penny candle that cannot reach the depths of their darkness....

Minimalist

Hey! I like that M/H. Very poetic. We need more of that around here.

Josephus wasn't the only one who exaggerated numbers. Caesar claimed that 1/4 million Gauls came to relieve Alesia. Herodotus claimed 2 million Persians invaded Greece. The OT claims 185,000 Assyrians killed outside of Jerusalem. All are examples of logistical stupidity. It always played well to the audience to have a large number of enemy dead.

maryhelena

Yes, playing with numbers seems to have been a great past-time....literal numbers and symbolic numbers...

maryhelena

Both the 40 b.c. date for Herod being made king in Rome and the 37 b.c. date for his siege of Jerusalem have been questioned. Seemingly, it was after the 184th Olympiad that Herod would have been appointed king. And the Roman historian Cassius Dio gives 38 b.c. for the siege of Jerusalem.

What this dating does do is question the 3 years that Josephus gives between when Herod was appointed king and when he became de facto king after removing Antigonus at the siege of Jerusalem. Thus perhaps only a 1 year period between the two events. If this is so then Herod’s 37th year rule - from 39 b.c. takes his death beyond the consensus date of 4 b.c.

Bottom line in all of this is very simple - Josephus is re-telling history, interpreting history, according to his own prophetic timetable. In other words - 3 years at the start of Herod’s rule 40 b.c. to 37 b.c. - and three years at the end - 4 b.c. to 1 b.c. (splitting the 7 year prophetic/symbolic number into two 3 and a half year period. At the end of each - in the middle of the week of 3 and a half years - someone gets cut off.....)

Thus, as the following quote details - it's the numismatic evidence that is compelling historians to disregard the historical evidence - but the coins running from 1 b.c. tell a different story than the story they tell when made to run from 4 b.c.............:huh:

my bolding

aa5874

You will NOT be able to support your suppositions. There is JUST NO CREDIBLE evidence for an "historical Jesus" or history behind MYTH JESUS.

VIRTUALLY ALL STONES HAVE BEEN OVERTURNED.

You are LOOKING at a BIG BLACK HOLE of Speculation.

We ALREADY have FOUR MYTH FABLES about Jesus in the NT CANON. We have MORE than enough.

maryhelena

aa5874 - enjoy your myths - I'm interested in history......:banghead:

arnoldo

There is an article on JewishEncyclopedia which states that Josephus primarily based his info re Herod from Nicholas of Damascus's writings. This article also perhaps wrongly states that Nicholas was approximately sixty years of age upon Herod's death on 4 B.C. Another source of info on Herod the Great is Michael Satlow's podcast on Herod available here.