xorbie

I disagree with this. It seems to me to be a slippery slope type of argument and one that encounters the is-ought (or perhaps the is-theroetically is) problem. To say that just because someone believes in God they are likely to believe in anything and everything is to ignore reality. I know a lot of scientists, engineers and otherways rather rational and often skeptical people who believe in God. You can call them hypocrits and say it is irrational, but this does not mean people such as thing do not exist.

This bit:

strikes me as no more substantiated than Christianity. "Sinful, because it is stolen in defiance of our duty to mankind"?? Come on. I might agree with this if we are talking about fundamentalists who actively oppose the gain of any new knowledge and any social progress, but to say this about false belief in general is absurd. Moreover, many theists have evidence of sorts. It may not be objective, but it is evidence (to them) nonetheless.

Joel

abe smith

The nominal (or "deutero") Saul of Tarsus said a very neat (but-what-does -that-prove?) compound sentence about (I misquote >>) "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen". I Know that's incorrectly.

(Hence) BELIEF is the word for "What is NOT KNOWN". Hence, belief's assertions are unsupported & unsupportable; hence they are essentially meaningless. MEANINGLESS!

Anyone (in ouah Wunnerful Country ... so long as our Federal Constitution holds) is free to BELIEVE anything they like, and the horse they come in on; BUT when BELIEF becomes /expands into PRACTISE, to limit/abolish by force (of one sort or another) the "beliefs", behaviours of other human beings ("We're all EQUAL here.") then "belief(s)" become lethal/toxic and those & their practitioners must be stamped-on and -out, like fire on the forest floor.

If you just want to eliminate other people & their beliefs. don't bugger my mind offering me fancy justifications for the use of *force majeure*; just go the fuck ahead and DO it; power is to them with the most nuclear weapons. And leave your "god"--
fetisch out of it.

Greger

Hmm... Isn't faith a bit counter productive?

Is it possible to find a peace of mind by believing? Wouldn't you have to be pretty ignorant to base your life around something that can't be measured, proven or explained? And if you're ignorant, your mind isn't really at peace, is it?

Anyone got some more thoughts on this? My brain's like jelly right now...

fishbulb

Your question answers itself: if he harms no one, he is not doing any harm by definition.

What a lot of people object to are the obvious cases where religious belief does cause harm. In some cases the harm is obvious and indefensible. In others, the harm is more subtle or less serious. There may be some cases in which the harm done is so minute as to be practically irrelevant. If religion were really like this in the overwhelming majority of cases, it would not be any more controversial than people holding on to lucky pennies, four-leafed clovers, or other charms. Clearly, though, this is not the case. There are few, if any, recorded cases of a massacre, war, act of terrorism, or repression resulting from a belief in the power of a lucky rabbit's foot. There are plenty of obvious harms which stem from peoples' religious beliefs, and many people think that there are a host of other, less obvious negative effects as well. Whether or not belief per se is harmful is an irrelevant distraction because there are obviously many cases where belief does lead to harm.

xorbie

Yes, it is possible to find a peace of mind by believing. And I wouldn't say you are ignorant to do that - unless you don't realize that your faith and whatever personal expirience you have is your evidence. And I don't see why ignorance automatically means your mind is at peace. Ignorance is, as they say, bliss (not always, but it can be).

Joel

xorbie

IMO, it's not belief so much as the structuralized, collective nature of the belief. As you said, wars aren't started over rabit feet. Why? Because Christianity has in the past, and continues to in many regions, run by mob mentality. Throw enough rituals, pastors, ceremonies and peer pressure and people will do anything.

Joel

Sensei Meela

I'm in a class called 'Problems of Democracy' right now...I believe I would contend vehemently against the assertion that 'practiced beliefs are toxic/lethal' when they impede the 'practiced beliefs' of others...you've basically just described 'democracy'!

And I'm a conservation biology student; the US's forest management practices, sp. relating to fire control and prevention, have been disastrous. I've had a fire ecology course with Steven Pyne, probably the US's leading fire ecologist [betcha didn't even know there was such a beast!]; the long and the short of it is: these ecosystems are adapted to frequent forest fires, having naturally evolved with them, and to alter the fire regime is bad, mmkay.



All in all, I think that faith *in and of itself* may not be bad; faith in *what*, and how it's employed, would probably make the difference. (Of course, this all assumes that there isn't some being judging us for what we have faith in...)

Yahzi

If it's based on falsehood, then it is bad.

That's a really simple concept that you accept for virtually every other instance.

Why don't you try suggesting some other false topics that it would be ok (or even good) for one to believe in based on lies? Can you suggest any other topic at all? Is it ever ok to belief a lie because it makes you feel better?

Once you realize you're making a special exemption for religion, it becomes easy to reject it.

xorbie

Racism and religion are not the same, but nice try.

Joel

trendkill

No, I knock all Christians. They all partake in perpetuating an abusive belief system. The few who do not actually commit abuse themselves still contribute to a climate that fosters future abuse.




I think they are a lot more similar than most people would like to think.