Warthur

Firstly, that's a question I suspect each parent would answer differently.

Secondly, a parent who loved their child unconditionally would still visit the child whilst the child was in prison. According to you God doesn't even pop into Hell to say hi.

On a slight tangent: if Christ's sacrifice was for *all* the sins of mankind, past present and future, surely this should include the sin of not believing in Christ?)

Baidarka

QOS"Yes, wars and famine and so on. Which have never, ever occurred in history before."


Magus55-

"They weren't as prevelent in the 1st Century"- "They weren't as prevelent in the 1st Century"- "They weren't as prevelent in the 1st Century"

What? Put down your silly Bible and read a history book. Try "The Jewish War".

Mageth

Magus even appears to contradict his own statements. See below.

A point I brought up that Magus declined to answer. So I'll repeat it.

-----------------------

Magus: let's go over this one more time:

Magus said: No. Humans were created in the image of God.

I asked: Do you mean by that, perfect?

I still want to know what it means to be created in the "image of God". Does that include perfection? Did God create us perfect (as a perfect God would, I suppose) or imperfect? Remember, you said: "By definition, perfect means you can't be wrong." So if God is perfect, he must have created us perfect, correct?

Magus said: Sinning goes against His nature of perfection. Sin is missing the mark. Its inferior to perfection.

(You contradict yourself by later claiming that "God doesn't expect any human to be perfect and meet His standards.")

I asked: If we were created in the "image of god" (perfect) how did we sin, how could we sin? Note that below you say "By definition, perfect means you can't be wrong."

I'd really like an answer to this. If God, being perfect, created us perfect (if he did not, the question comes up of how a perfect being can create imperfection), then the ability to sin must be "perfect", and a perfect God would not be justified in punishing his perfect creations for exercising their perfect ability. Remember, "By definition, perfect means you can't be wrong." If Adam and Eve were created perfect, they couldn't "be wrong".

If you argue that sinning "corrupted" A&E and made us somehow imperfect, then I would argue that God did not create us perfectly to begin with; there was a serious design flaw built in. The flaw was either put there intentionally or by oversight. Remember, "By definition, perfect means you can't be wrong."

I can see this leading to the whole "free will" argument. God gave us free will and that is the perfect way to create us. The only thing I'll say about that now is that if God gave us free will and considered us "perfect" in doing so, then how is he justified for being angry at, and punishing us, for exercising that perfect gift? God creates us "perfectly" with free will, and then is angry when we exercise that free will in a way that doesn't suit his will? We're suddenly not perfect because we exercise our free will to make choices that counter his will? Then how the hell is our will "free"?

Magus said: Thats unacceptable to a perfect being, and since His nature also requires righteousness and Justice, He can't let sin go unpunished.

(Again, you contradict yourself by later claiming that "God doesn't expect any human to be perfect and meet His standards.")

I replied: Well, by your arguments, either he created us perfect, and thus we can't sin ("perfect means you can't be wrong") or else he created us imperfect, and thus his need to punish us for our imperfection is questionable at best.

Well, Magus, what of it? Did God create A&E perfect or imperfect?

Queen of Swords

Excellent point. To put it another way :

1. Does God have free will?
2. If yes, would he ever sin?
3. If not, then he could have (and should have) created Adam and Eve to be exactly like himself - having free will, but never sinning. Or performing "calamity", if that euphemism is preferable.

In that case, Magus, how does god punish the sins of children who die before the age of accountability without accepting Jesus?

Magdlyn

Mageth, you might want to consider you are conflating two contradictory stories in Gen.


Gen 1:27 So "El" created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them...And God blessed them...and it was very good.

And this first couple (or community) did no wrong.

but in--

Gen 2:7 then YHWH formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

--Adam and Eve were more trouble. Not being in God's image, you see. Merely YHWH's bumbling attempt at ceramics.

Starboy

Genesis was a metaphor for man's creation of god. God was created in man's image. The universe was created as man wishes it to be.

Starboy

Mageth

Instead, it appears that God gave A&E free will and was surprised, angered, and perhaps even a little jealous (he was afraid that A&E would "become like us") when A&E actually used it.

Claiming that God is "perfect" and can "do no wrong" simply don't jibe with the Scriptures. If God is perfect and created us "in his image", then "sin" is part of his "perfection". If it was wrong for A&E to eat the fruit, then God was wrong to put the tree in the Garden, and to allow the serpent to tempt them.

Mageth

Yes, I know that Gen. 1-2:3 is creation according to El, and Gen. 2:4-3 is creation according to YHWH, two different versions of the Creation myth. I'm quite familiar with the Documentary Hypothesis. Magus, however, considers them one account with an overview in Ch. 1 and details in Ch. 2, as do many other believers.

I'm arguing against Magus' interpretation, not the correct interpretation.

Mageth

Agreed, but of course I'm asking Magus how he interprets it.

Magdlyn

Yeah, I get you Mageth. I guess I was speaking to Magus by way of Mageth.

BTW, M or M, if "God" never changes, why'd he change his name from El to YHWH, from chapter one to chapter two of "his" book, one might ask?

signed, M