Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cege · 05-01-2007, 07:20 PM

Do you seriously contend that Paul wasn't speaking of Jesus as a historical person? a person who lived earth in human form during the 1st century and met, lived with the apostles to discuss religious philosophy?

What is it that Paul wrote that you interpret as claiming that Jesus was only a spiritual being?

Toto · 05-01-2007, 07:42 PM

Cege - start with www.jesuspuzzle.com - Paul did not speak of Jesus as a person who lived in the first century or who met with apostles to discuss religion philosophy. He only made a few vague references to the crucifixion, to Jesus being "born of a woman," and possibly to something like the last supper, but he never places Jesus at a particular time or place.

GakuseiDon · 05-02-2007, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Just saying that some figure was human isn't historical, and indeed pointing out that someone is human is all the more a sign of myth, you there is no need to point out that real people are people.

I think you may have snookered yourself there. Does Paul point out that Jesus was a real person? If he didn't, was that because there is no need to point out that Jesus was a real person?

What would be interesting to see is writings along the same lines as Paul where a purely spiritual person is depicted in the same manner as Paul and Hebrews depict Jesus. Are there any similar examples?

GakuseiDon · 05-02-2007, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Cege - start with www.jesuspuzzle.com - Paul did not speak of Jesus as a person who lived in the first century or who met with apostles to discuss religion philosophy. He only made a few vague references to the crucifixion, to Jesus being "born of a woman," and possibly to something like the last supper, but he never places Jesus at a particular time or place.

I would disagree. Paul certainly appears to place Jesus in Jerusalem and as dying at some period after Moses, if not in the recent past (assuming 1 Cor 15 is original to Paul). It's certainly vague, but the problem there is that Paul doesn't depict himself, or anyone else IIRC, in any clearer way.

If Paul placed Jesus in Jerusalem and at some period after Moses, says he was born of a woman, why isn't this enough to establish that Paul regarded Jesus as a human being? Even if it doesn't prove historicity, it is enough to disprove Doherty's view.

Ted Hoffman · 05-02-2007, 02:41 AM

Quote:

What is it that Paul wrote that you interpret as claiming that Jesus was only a spiritual being?

1. He says Jesus was killed by demons (princes of this world), not Pilate.
2. He says in Phillipians that Jesus was an unnamed god who humbled himself and came down and was sacrificed and for that, he was exalted by being named Jesus.
3. He never places Jesus anywhere on earth - neither Nazareth, Jerusalem, Bethlehem or Galilee.
4. He never associates Jesus with any father or mother on earth - Neither Mary, Joseph, nor anyone presumed to be earthly is associated with him.
5. He gets information about Jesus from the old testament and revelation, not through historical sources or witnesses of Jesus' life.
6. He treats the crucifixion as a spiritual event, not an earthly, physical one because he says he died and resurrected with Christ.

Solo · 05-02-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

1. He says Jesus was killed by demons (princes of this world), not Pilate.

Paul says that if the rulers had wisdom they would not have crucified the (one who really was the) "Lord of glory". If the "rulers" were demons (not merely living in an age where primitive passions dominate) Paul would be saying in effect: If demons were not demons, they would have not molested my theological abstract. I don't think Paul meant to say that.

Quote:

2. He says in Phillipians that Jesus was an unnamed god who humbled himself and came down and was sacrificed and for that, he was exalted by being named Jesus.

Paul does not speak of "an unnamed god" in Phl 2:5 when he says that Jesus Christ was in "the form of God" before coming down to earth as a humble man. Paul appears to have come to believe, sincerely, without ulterior motive, that the ab-/para-normal mental states that he, Paul, experienced related to the historical figure whom he did not know but whom he previously rejected as an end-of-time prophet. Specifically, he believed that the peak sensations of euphoric disembodiment that he and his audience of "saints" identified as the "day of the Lord" (2 Cr 12:2-3, 1 Th 5:2), testify, or give a preview, what life will be like in heaven. As these mental states (relating to bi-polarity) routinely morph into psychotic episodes of "self-annihilation", Paul and the apocalyptics convinced themselves they lived at the very edge of time. The world was going to end soon: tomorrow, next month, in this generation.

Paul simply correlated with people similarly afflicted as he was, the recently departed figure of the Nazarenes, whose death he accepted as a sign of the Apocalypse and whose import he expanded into a full-blown theology.

Quote:

3. He never places Jesus anywhere on earth - neither Nazareth, Jerusalem, Bethlehem or Galilee.

Paul had no interest in gospel Jesus - who did not exist then. Paul would have rejected such flesh-idolatry (if he, in fact, did not do just that for its early forms). I believe Paul would have gone glossolalic had he read John's "Word that came to dwell among us as flesh". The only Jesus Paul was interested in was the dead one, who was coming around as the risen Lord. It was him that Paul and his correspondents were going to meet with tomorrow, next month, ...not sure exactly...but definitely soon.

Quote:

4. He never associates Jesus with any father or mother on earth - Neither Mary, Joseph, nor anyone presumed to be earthly is associated with him.

Paul would have discounted the stories about Jesus he presumably heard from Cephas. The two were essentially rival proselythes. So, he would not likely have represented the earthly Jesus second hand, even if he did not believe that God made Jesus appear as a blasphemer and a fool, (and probably other things too).

Quote:

5. He gets information about Jesus from the old testament and revelation, not through historical sources or witnesses of Jesus' life.

Paul does not know the concept of "information". He relates the import of Jesus death and rising to assorted OT passages for interpretation, as was the exegetical custom then and as it is now with the assorted Armageddon psychos.

Quote:

6. He treats the crucifixion as a spiritual event, not an earthly, physical one because he says he died and resurrected with Christ.

Paul believed that Jesus Christ's suffering in his human form was a normative precept for the earthly existence of himself and his church as the only warranty of glorious post-mortem. Flesh = sin, sin = death. The only way to avoid death is to be spiritual before you really die, i.e. reject this world in toto.

Jiri

Cege · 05-02-2007, 12:09 PM

Responding to Ted Hoffman-->>

1. Do you mean that Paul literally says that only a spiritual being (Jesus) can be killed by spiritual beings (demons) and therefore Jesus was a purely spiritual being? Which verse/s do you refer to?

2. I guess you refer to Phillipians 2:5-11? Those same verses say that Jesus was a man in appearance and died on a cross. A spiritual being might have been thought to take on the appearance of a man, but dying on a cross?

3. Placement in a particular city or region isn't mentioned by Paul, but do you think the references about birth to a woman, appearance in human form, dying on a cross were meant by Paul to be in a spiritual region of some sort rather than in Judea?

4. Even though Mary (or any other name) isn't given to the woman that Paul says gave birth to Jesus, he does say that Jesus was born to a woman. That's an association, even if the woman goes unnamed by Paul. Paul mentions that Abraham and David were ancestors of Jesus, and Jesus was Jewish. In Galations, Paul says that he went to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and also met James the brother of Jesus; years later he went again, and met with James, Peter, and John. Aren't those associations with earthly people?

5. James, Peter, and John claimed to be associates of Jesus, and they talked with Paul (again according to the Galations epistle); Peter (Paul refers to him several times in different letters) spent 15 days with Paul, and Peter was supposed to be a witness of Jesus' life.

6. I'm not a literalist, so I don't take the writing of Paul to mean literally that Paul died physically and was resurrected before writing his letters. Paul speaks of the death of Jesus on a cross/tree as a physical event that had tremendous spiritual meaning and result for Paul. Paul does often use figures of speech even if he doesn't make use of parable.

Cege · 05-02-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

#1) The whole "born of a woman" thing is an allegory, as Paul himself says. The "woman" is "the Jerusalem in heaven".

I've tried, but I don't understand the statement above, nor can I find a reference in the Pauline epistles. What chapter and verses to you refer to where Paul himself says that "born of a woman" is an allegory of "the Jerusalem in heaven"?

Again, it would be so helpful to me if you'd give the passage you source to when you make your statements/claims.

Malachi151 · 05-02-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Galatians 4:
1 My point is this: heirs, as long as they are minors, are no better than slaves, though they are the owners of all the property; 2 but they remain under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. 3 So with us; while we were minors, we were enslaved to the elemental spirits of the world. 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children. 6 And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir of God through Christ.

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to beings that by nature are not gods. 9 Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again? 10 You are observing special days, and months, and seasons, and years. 11 I am afraid that my work for you may have been wasted.

12 Brothers, I beg you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong. 13 You know that it was because of a physical infirmity that I first announced the gospel to you; 14 though my condition put you to the test, you did not scorn or despise me, but welcomed me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 What has become of the goodwill you felt? For I testify that, had it been possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? 17 They make much of you, but for no good purpose; they want to exclude you, so that you may make much of them. 18 It is good to be made much of for a good purpose at all times, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I am again in the pain of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 I wish I were present with you now and could change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.

21 Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. 23 One, the child of the slave, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs;
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married."

28 Now you, my brothers, are children of the promise, like Isaac. 29 But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the scripture say? "Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman." 31 So then, brothers, we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman.

You can go here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...h_followup.htm

Search for allegory, and that will take you to the proper section.

Ben C Smith · 05-02-2007, 01:06 PM

Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman (Hagar), the other by a free woman (Sarah). Paul tells us that the slave woman allegorically represents Sinai, which in turn represents the present Jerusalem. Paul also tells us that the free woman allegorically represents the Jerusalem above.

Which woman, Hagar or Sarah, do you think Paul is calling the mother of Jesus?

Ben.

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05-01-2007, 07:20 PM	#51
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Do you seriously contend that Paul wasn't speaking of Jesus as a historical person? a person who lived earth in human form during the 1st century and met, lived with the apostles to discuss religious philosophy? What is it that Paul wrote that you interpret as claiming that Jesus was only a spiritual being?

05-01-2007, 07:42 PM	#52
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Cege - start with www.jesuspuzzle.com - Paul did not speak of Jesus as a person who lived in the first century or who met with apostles to discuss religion philosophy. He only made a few vague references to the crucifixion, to Jesus being "born of a woman," and possibly to something like the last supper, but he never places Jesus at a particular time or place.

05-02-2007, 12:09 PM	#57
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Responding to Ted Hoffman-->> 1. Do you mean that Paul literally says that only a spiritual being (Jesus) can be killed by spiritual beings (demons) and therefore Jesus was a purely spiritual being? Which verse/s do you refer to? 2. I guess you refer to Phillipians 2:5-11? Those same verses say that Jesus was a man in appearance and died on a cross. A spiritual being might have been thought to take on the appearance of a man, but dying on a cross? 3. Placement in a particular city or region isn't mentioned by Paul, but do you think the references about birth to a woman, appearance in human form, dying on a cross were meant by Paul to be in a spiritual region of some sort rather than in Judea? 4. Even though Mary (or any other name) isn't given to the woman that Paul says gave birth to Jesus, he does say that Jesus was born to a woman. That's an association, even if the woman goes unnamed by Paul. Paul mentions that Abraham and David were ancestors of Jesus, and Jesus was Jewish. In Galations, Paul says that he went to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and also met James the brother of Jesus; years later he went again, and met with James, Peter, and John. Aren't those associations with earthly people? 5. James, Peter, and John claimed to be associates of Jesus, and they talked with Paul (again according to the Galations epistle); Peter (Paul refers to him several times in different letters) spent 15 days with Paul, and Peter was supposed to be a witness of Jesus' life. 6. I'm not a literalist, so I don't take the writing of Paul to mean literally that Paul died physically and was resurrected before writing his letters. Paul speaks of the death of Jesus on a cross/tree as a physical event that had tremendous spiritual meaning and result for Paul. Paul does often use figures of speech even if he doesn't make use of parable.

05-02-2007, 01:06 PM	#60
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman (Hagar), the other by a free woman (Sarah). Paul tells us that the slave woman allegorically represents Sinai, which in turn represents the present Jerusalem. Paul also tells us that the free woman allegorically represents the Jerusalem above. Which woman, Hagar or Sarah, do you think Paul is calling the mother of Jesus? Ben.

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