mountainman

ADDENDUM to REQUEST

Biblical "HISTORY" and Ancient History are two separate fields.
I seek feedback in the field of ancient history which is not available
in the expertise of Biblical "History".

I expressly want feedback from another forum.
Am I entitled to the right of having this thread
posted to the science forum.

The arbitration of my thesis will be by way of SCIENCE.
By way of archeology. I have exhausted the avenues
available to "Biblical Historians" to adequately respond,
and have had a number of threads totally undiscussed,
such as the review I have conducted on the book by
Elsa Gibson "The Christian for Christian Inscriptions of
Phrygia" --- this represents a fair bit of research and
work, and deserves comment.

Shades of Oded Golam, for christ's sake, Gibson readily
admits that some of the ancient greek inscriptions have
been added by a later hand.

mountainman

Start with the foremost ancient historian of the 20th century.
Arnaldo Momingliano who says the following:

“The [religious] revolution of the fourth century . . .
will not be understood if we underrate
the determination, almost the fierceness,
with which the Christians appreciated and exploited

the miracle

that had transformed Constantine
into a supporter, a protector, and later a legislator
of the Christian church.”

—Arnaldo Momigliano,
The Conflict Between Paganism and Christianity in the Fourth Century


Then move to the assessment of the integrity of Constantine's
Minister for Propaganda, Eusebius, and other issues, such as the Council of Nicaea,
the letters written by Constantine that show his malevolent
despotism, and other resources at the above page.

One of the unarguable references is from Vlasis Rassias' Demolish Them
which I believe is sourced from the Theodosian Codex, and
commences with the following entries:


326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys
the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the
goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of
Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and
orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers."
Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes "all the
soothsayers and the Hellenists." Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned
or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in
Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a
"magician".

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship
through sacrifice and "idols".

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them
are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

Execution of pagan priests begins.

A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and
the execution of all "idolaters".

First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire.

The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A
major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded).

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for
the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around
the empire.

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is
declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian
(Flavius Claudius Julianus).

363 Assassination of Julian (26th June).

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those
that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination ("sileat omnibus
perpetuo divinandi curiositas").

Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order
the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death
penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.

The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia - western Asia Minor) orders that
religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday.
Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting
on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ.

365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th
November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all
the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the
ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed.
The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is
decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius,
Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes
and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term "pagan"
(pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, "peasants") is
introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the
Christians.

380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the
Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation
should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to
the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."

The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind".

In another edict, Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the
Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.

Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his
area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of
goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and
Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries
and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine'
(thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all
their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the
Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On
21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the
temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.

382 "Hellelujah" ("Glory to Yahweh") is imposed in the Christian mass.

384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated
Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the
pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and
bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and
destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they
destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus
in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.

Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom
in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386 Theodosius outlaws the care of the sacked pagan temples.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old
orator Libanius sends his famous epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with
the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and
spared.

389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed.
Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle
East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and
lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy
persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turning the temple of Dionysius
into a Christian church, burning down the Mithraeum of the city, destroying
the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed
by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to
pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy
persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led
by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock
themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion).
After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it,
burn its famous library and profane the cult images.

392 On 8th November, Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and
names them "superstitions of the gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New
full scale persecutions are ordered against pagans. The Mysteries of
Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop
"Saint" Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the
island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of
goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius's edict declares:

"The ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in
that island."

The pagans revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis,
Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as
part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the temples of Olympia.

395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against
pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius
directs the hordes of baptized Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the
Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many
cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura,
Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable
gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down
the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the
hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 On 7th December, a new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated
as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and
hierophants.

397 "Demolish them!" Flavius Arcadius orders that all the still standing
pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including
Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza,
demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them
that remain active).

399 With a new edict (13th July) Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan
temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished.

400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptizes all
the non-Christians of this area.

401 The Christian mob of Carthage lynches non-Christians and destroys
temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop "Saint" Porphyrius sends
his followers to lynch pagans and to demolish the remaining nine still
active temples of the city.

The 15th Council of Chalcedon orders all the Christians that still keep good
relations with their non-Christian relatives to be excommunicated (even
after their death).

405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of grey-dressed monks armed with clubs and
iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

406 John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially
support the demolition of the Hellenic temples. In Ephesus he orders the
destruction of the famous temple of Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, "Saints"
Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the pagans and the
total destruction of their temples and sanctuaries.

407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408 The emperor of the Western Empire, Honorius, and the emperor of the
Eastern Empire, Arcadius, order all the sculptures of the pagan temples to
be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan
sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions
against the pagans and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the
pagans are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of
protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Another edict orders all methods of divination including astrology to be
punished by death.

415 In Alexandria, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyril, attacks a
few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the
famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried
around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally
burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron.

On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of
North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. Emperor
Theodosius II expels the Jews from Alexandria.

416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last
pagans of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army
officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423 Emperor Theodosius II declares (8th June) that the religion of the
pagans is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist
in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.



I stopped a century after Nicaea.
The list continues for another 1.5
centuries of christian persecution.

skepticalbip

I think this thread may be in the correct forum despite your desires (Unless the power that be decide to relegate it to ~E~). Off handed responses like the one quoted below for any citation that contradicts what you want to believe is certainly not a scientific approach.
If you arbitrarily discount historic documentation out of hand as some grand conspiracy then you can hardly expect to have a reasoned discussion in S&S.

GenesisNemesis

Well, it would partly make sense because of the pagan persecutions.

mountainman

Greetings skepticalbip,

My thesis is in the field of ancient history.
The thesis is skeptical in a critical fashion
with respect to the literature generated
according to modern scholars during the
rule of Constantine.

The thesis is scientific, and may essentially
be described as resting on one postulate:
namely that the Constantine Bible c.331 CE
contains a fiction and a pseudo-history
which was physically invented under the
natural copyright invested in a fourth century
author, and/or editor, Eusebius of Caesarea.

The existence of evidence in many fields has
been reviewed and collated on my website,
and an exceptions index is present.

My claim is that there does not appear to be any
scientific and/or archeological evidence whatsoever
available to support the inference that christianity
actually existed before the rise of Constantine,
despite the assertion to the contrary contained
in those very publications.


The scientific approach I have adopted may be skeptical
to a critical degree here, however I blatantly refute that
the thesis is arbitrarily discounting ancient history citations.
On the contrary, I seek them from the SCIENCE FORUM.

An historian and a scientist may start with one postulate.
In my case, I choose to start with the postulate that the
two separate fourth century publications entititled "The
Constantine Bible" (and all its associated literature as
defined in my article The Fabrication of the Galilaeans)
and the Historia Augusta are of the same genre.

FICTION: of men composed by wickedness

This definitionn by the Emperor Julian c.362 CE.

THUS have I sought the archeological and/or
scientific citations by which my theory may be
refuted, citations forn the existence of anything
"christian" in the prenicene epoch before the rise
of Constantine.

THUS I make my first post to the SCIENCE forum.

MOREOVER, in defence of having this thread relocated
back to the SCIENCE Forum where I posted it, I wish
to state that I am willing to defend the logic and
principles inherent and in use by the theory, as being
scientific and non-arbitrary. I am willing to be refuted
in whole or in part by the provision of evidence.

I am expecting that members of the SCIENCE forum may
possibly be able to provide me with more evidence
in one day, than the BC&H forum has provided me
with in one year.

Again, thankyou MODERATORS for

consideration of

allowing my post
to remain in the SCIENCE forum where I originally
and thoughtfully placed it.

Toto

mountainman: I think you have gotten some feedback here in BCH. It's just that most of it has not supported you.

I think that part of your problem is that you post the same material over and over, and a lot of the regulars just stop reading.

I don't think that the S&S forum will get you any more responses. It's not as if there is a corps of historical or archeological experts there who are about to jump out and reveal the missing information that will make your thesis persuasive.

edited to add: S&S does not deal with ancient history, in part because the evidence for anything in ancient history is not conclusive enough to reach the sort of conclusions that scientists feel comfortable with.

mountainman

Hi Toto,

I have always maintained that I really seek archeological and/or
scientific evidence. Neither have I under-estimated the
amount of feedback provided by all the contributors to BC&H.
Invaluable assistance has been provided to my thesis over
the last year by discussions with all, yourself included.

But I must repeat, I seek -- like any reasonable scientist who
is skeptical -- refutation and/or corroboration by evidence.

It is essentially archeological and/or scientifric citations
which I seek to refute my own position. Can't you understand
that I am entirely willing to be shown wrong?

May I ask that you yourself move this thread back to the
SCIENCE forum. I want to discuss the scientitic method
used by my thesis. Have a look at my website under
the Science and Mathematics sections.

I can appreciate the difficulties of moderation, but in this
instance I believe I have a right to discuss this issue
as proposed in the science and SKEPTICISM forum.

skepticalbip

I don't think you understand the scientific method. It is your idea so it is your burden to prove it to the satisfaction of others not their burden to disprove, refute, or corroborate your position. Unless you can meet your burden of proof then your hypothesis is assumed to have no practical merit or meaning. No counter evidence is necessary.

Goathead

Well, ive tried following up on the info posted but i cant seem to find much (esp. the connection with Augustine and the pagan slaughters).However, i agree that this could be in S&S, but youll probably get a better response in philo, which is where it is now.



What are the main objections you have encountered so far in your thesis?

J-D

'Did Constantine invent Christianity?' is a question, not a statement.

A question cannot be a thesis. A thesis must be a statement.

A question cannot be falsified (a la Popper). Only a statement can be falsified.