Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-21-2009, 10:44 AM

You are right. The book is by Morton Smith and Moses Hadas. I sent Amazon a suggestion for update.

patcleaver · 01-21-2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Are there any lines in Matthew or Luke that people think might be confessions that their works are impossible to be taken as history and must be fiction?

When Jesus is arrested, the apostles flee, and they are not available as witnesses to the trial and tribulations and crucifixion of Jesus. It would have been very easy for Mark to have the apostles arrested with Jesus and accompany Jesus, and then they could have been witnesses of the trial and tribulations and crucifixion of Jesus, and then the Romans could have released them. The fact that Mark does not provide any available witnesses to the trial and tribulations and crucifixion of Jesus could be an intentional indication that Mark was writing fiction.

patcleaver · 01-21-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Unlike Mark, those authors tell you that they are writing history. Whether or not everything or anything in their story actually happened is another story.

To anyone else who has completely missed the point, I would like to avoid leaving this to stand as though it were a legitimate point.

When one is wondering whether something is an indication an ancient author was writing fiction (as opposed to assuming it is and running with it blindly), the wise course is to see if the same sort of alleged indication can be found in works that are clearly not intended to be fiction.

When one finds examples of ancient authors who were intending to describe actual events or people (odd how that used to be just my "opinion"

) utilizing the alleged indication, it should be obvious that the alleged indication is not, in fact, a reliable indication at all.

Stop trying to hijack this thread.

The OP says the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Are there any lines in Matthew or Luke that people think might be confessions that their works are impossible to be taken as history and must be fiction?

We are only gathering things that might be intentional indications of fiction.

If you want to talk about the criteria for determining whether these potential indications are reliable indicators or not, then start a new thread. I assume that is what PhilosopherJay was planning, but if he doesn't then you should do that.

Why don't you contribute something to the thread. Look through the Gospels and try to identify things that might be an intentional hint that the gospels are fiction. Are you too biased to contribute?

patcleaver · 01-21-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Ben, are you saying that the though you can classify a work as a βιος, such a classification, in and of itself, is basically useless for identifying real history?

Just to make sure I understand your position.

Almost. It is my position that the genre classification in itself does not mean even that the personage in question is historical (though it has to be admitted that he usually is), much less any of the events in his life.

But I would not say that the genre identification is useless for identifying real history, since the existence of the biography is evidence that somebody thought the personage really lived (it is, IOW, indirect evidence, not direct); this may be useful in distinguishing scenarios in which nobody ever thought the person existed from scenarios in which at least some did. And I think the (chronological) distance of the biography from its subject is also an important factor.

But yes, I think it is possible for an ancient βιος to be written about a person who never even existed.

Ben.

All the definitions I have, say that a Biography is the history of a person, and history is non-fiction.

I feel like I am behind the times. Please help.

Provide an available reference which explains what βιος is and how it is different than Biography.

Provide an available reference that explains why Historical Fiction can be considered Hiitory.

Provide an available reference that explains why Bigraphical Fiction can be considered Biography.

Ben C Smith · 01-21-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patcleaver

All the definitions I have say that a Biography is the history of a person, and history is non-fiction.

Are you looking at definitions of modern biographies (for example, in a modern dictionary)? Or are you looking at definitions of ancient βιοι?

Quote:

Provide an available reference which explains what βιος is and how it is different than Biography.

Try Charles Talbert, What Is A Gospel? Or Richard Burridge, What Are The Gospels?

And I already referenced Plutarch in his prologue to his Life of Alexander. Given that your definitions are all agreeing that a biography is the history of a person, his comments should indicate for you that, at least when it comes to ancient biographies, there is a difference between a biography (a life, βιος) and a history:

It must be borne in mind that my design is to write, not histories, but lives.

Quote:

Provide an available reference that explains why Historical Fiction can be considered History.

What claim of mine is prompting you to ask me to do this? I do not think historical fiction equals history. And I do not think the gospels are histories.

Quote:

Provide an available reference that explains why Bigraphical Fiction can be considered Biography.

Again, what claim of mine is prompting you to ask me to do this? I do not know exactly what you mean by biographical fiction. Is that a genre statement or are you judging the content?

Ben.

dog-on · 01-21-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Ben, I have no issue with what you have posted and basically agree, but that isn't what I was debating Amaleq about.

I do not see how it is possible for you to both agree with Ben's post and maintain the ridiculous position you've been arguing.

Alleged indications that were apparently nothing but uninformed speculation since they not only have no basis in actual ancient texts but are plainly contradicted by those texts.

But no justification for assuming that he thought everything he wrote was fiction. That leap continues to be terminally flawed.

Quote:

to me asking Amaleq to provide evidence that Mark wants us to think that he was writing history.

And this continues to be a straw man position I have never taken in this discussion and the effort to change the focus of the discussion continues to be a logically flawed attempt to shift the burden.

Lay off the pipe, imo...

Clivedurdle · 01-21-2009, 02:29 PM

What are descriptions of the lives of dog people and biographies of gods?

Amaleq13 · 01-21-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patcleaver

We are only gathering things that might be intentional indications of fiction.

Unless they have some grounding in the relevant data, that is a complete waste of everyone's time and lowers the quality of the discussions.

Quote:

If you want to talk about the criteria for determining whether these potential indications are reliable indicators or not, then start a new thread.

No, that makes no sense. The reliability of any alleged indication is clearly and unequivocably related to whether it actually is any sort of indiction.

This forum aspires to bit more scholarly content than just uninformed bullshitting about ideas with no connection to the relevant data. Why not try to help that effort rather than undermine it by spreading ideas that reflect ignorance of the relevant data?

Too much trouble to actually do the necessary homework?

Quote:

Why don't you contribute something to the thread.

Pointing out that one alleged indication actually isn't a reliable indicator of anything, is a contribution to the thread whether you recognize it or not.

Amaleq13 · 01-21-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Lay off the pipe, imo...

What an excellent indicator of the amount of genuine thought you are willing to put into the discussion. Nice job! :thumbs:

aa5874 · 01-21-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

It must be borne in mind that my design is to write, not histories, but lives.

Writing about a life is writing about the history of a life.

Based on your post, the "Lives of the Twelve Caesars" by Suetonius would have no history of the lives of the Caesars which is just so absurd.

And Tacitus "Annals" and "Histories" would have nothing on the lives the Caesars.

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01-21-2009, 10:44 AM	#241
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You are right. The book is by Morton Smith and Moses Hadas. I sent Amazon a suggestion for update.

01-21-2009, 02:29 PM	#247
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	What are descriptions of the lives of dog people and biographies of gods?

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