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Old 03-13-2008, 07:28 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Malachi151 View Post
barre: Calling Christianity a "primitive religion" is a factually incorrect statement, it is NOT a primitive religion, and this isn't a matter of semantics it is an absolute fact.

A lot of study has been put into the field of anthropology and religious history, we have a very good understanding of the evolution of religions and religious belief in human civilization.

Calling Christianity a "primitive" religion completely ignores that research and undermines the entire field of religion evolution.

Christianity is a highly evolved religion, the ideas of which developed in human civilization over thousands of years. It bears no resemblance at all to the earliest forms of religion and pseudo-religion.

For example, "primitive religions" typically lack any concept of an afterlife, and certainly any concept of a "heaven" or "new world" as Christianity contains.

"Primitive religions" lack the concept of a universal god. An inherent trait of primitive religion is that the gods are tribal, not universal, and this is in fact what we see in the Old Testament.

The most primitive religions in fact lack even concepts of morality or laws or right and wrong, they typically are focused only on trying to appease gods through ritual and sacrifice and they offer no moral guidance.

You can call it a brutal religion if you want, but not a "primitive" one. That is a very specific term that has a very definite meaning and it can't be applied to Christianity.

Once can claim that a tiger is a very brutal killer, but not that it is a primitive animal, a tiger is a "highly evolved" form. A primitive form would be something like a stromatalite.

You can claim that MMA is a brutal bloodsport, but not that its a primitive sport. MMA is the most advanced combat sport there is, it is highly evolved. It developed after boxing and integrates techniques from many different, more primitive, ancestor combat techniques. It combines those into a more advanced and more brutal combat sport.

To call Christianity "primitive" is to claim that the ideas contained in it date far back into human civilization, but in fact they don't. Most of the major ideas contained within Christianity developed from the 4th century BCE to the 2nd century CE. They are relatively recent religious concepts. They are not concepts that we find in older religions.

The idea of the primacy of "faith" is in fact a "recent" concept. More primitive religions don't have this concept, in fact many older "more primitive" religions are more grounded in material observation than later religions. As religions evolved it became increasingly farther removed from reality, and thus in more primitive religions we often find that they are based on natural observations and deal mostly with worldly events. Over time religion became less interested in worldly events and more interested in a completely fabricated reality.

Even Judaism is a much less primitive religion than many of the competing religions of tis own time. People point to things like to story of Abraham and Isaac, where God asks Abraham to sacrifice his own son, then tells him not to, as an example of the "barbarity" of the religion, but in fact the opposite is the case. That story is a commentary on the more primitive practice of human sacrifice, and is a story about the end of human sacrifice. Many cultures in fact continued to practice human sacrifice long after the Jews stopped. Greeks and Romans were still engaging in human sacrifice in the 1st century. THATS primitive!

Judaism is certainly less primitive than the earlier Sumerian and Babylonian religions, and Christianity of course is less primitive still, indeed it is a highly evolved and sophisticated organized religion.
We will agree to disagree because I don't think humanity as a whole is anything but primative. Therefore it is impossible for us to have a philosophy that is highly evolved. There are still too many problems concerning basic human needs to consider ourselves beyond a primitive state.

I agree with MarkA's post and where he says:

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Even religions that have a veneer of sophistication tend to lapse into their primitive origins when under stress. When Rome was under threat from Hannibal, human sacrifice was reintroduced while the witch craze in Europe at a time of severe cultural and personal stress is well documented.
I think this is true today and the fact that under certain conditions humans quickly revert to even more primitive thought/action indicates that we are still very connected to our earlier philosophies.
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:24 AM   #42
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The problem appears to be a matter of terminology. "Primitive" is a technical term. It has a specific technical meaning.

It is an objective fact that Christianity is not a "primitive" religion.

Primitive is a term that means that something is lacking in features that are found in something else within a set, or that it is "less advanced" than something else within a set. In this sense "primitive" is subjective because the primitiveness of something can only be judged in relation to other things.

It is impossible to say that "everything is primitive". You can't call all religions "primitive", that's like saying that all religions are the youngest, or all people are fatter.

In biology, anthropology, linguistics, etc., scholars rank individuals within hierarchies from most primitive to most advanced.

When one does such an analysis of religion, Christianity clearly comes out on top as one of the most advanced religions. Since it came along after everything that came before it, that should be no surprise.

Whether something is "primitive" or "advanced" has nothing to do with whether it is good or bad or completely stupid.

Claiming that Christianity is "primitive" is not only completely wrong, but it also conveys a very misleading idea, which is the idea that the ideas contained withing Christianity are foundational in human religious thought, but they very clearly are not.

We find very few of the major aspects of Christianity in the earliest forms of religion. It is a claim of Christians that their ideas are "original" and have been known for "all time", that they were given by God to the first people, etc. This is not true. We can plainly see that the ideas of Christianity evolved over time, incorporating ideas from many cultures, and especially from Greek philosophy.

If you claim that the ideas of Christianity are "primitive" then you are claiming that things like the concept of a single "omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent" God are "primitive", or foundational to human concepts of the divine. This is plainly false. This is an idea that was introduced by Greek philosophers and was later integrated into Christianity, it is not a "primitive" concept at all. Indeed this concept is found in almost no other religion in the world other than Christianity and Islam, and not anachronistically in Judaism. Prior to that it was really only expressed within Greek deistic philosophies such as Stoicism. Furthermore, this concept, since it is not primitive, is clearly a product of human thought, not of "divine revelation", as Christians claim.

Calling Christianity "primitive" actually plays into Christian claims of originality, and more importantly, its simply false.

Pointing our certain "primitive" aspects is one thing, but this is more akin to point out that humans posses common cellular traits with bacteria. Yes, in an evolutionary process the more advanced entities are going to retain some of the traits that they inherited from their more primitive ancestors, but that does not make them primitive.

Christianity is not primitive, it retains some of the characteristics of the primitive antecedents that it evolved from.
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:05 AM   #43
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I still think it would be helpful to anchor the scale with other examples. Where, for instance, does scientology lie on this scale? What are the criteria for aligning a religion on this scale?

It seems to become just a silly game of semantics otherwise.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:40 AM   #44
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Malachi151 I hear ya and you are quite right, it can be boiled down to semantics and in your perspective you are correct. I am thinking in a different perspective and taking humankind's potential future into account as well and measuring that against where we were/are.

I think there will be a turning point, maybe triggered by a discovery or series of discoveries that will help mankind out of the dark ages. I also think at that point it is likely mankind will lose it's affinity with supernatural saviors and learn to take responsibility for itself. Sort of "grow-up" in a way.

Once down that road, we may look at all god-based religions as being primitive, but would consider some more evolved than others.
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