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Old 01-22-2011, 04:47 PM   #31
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You can read the history of the relation of December 25 to the birth of Sol Invictus here.
I would regard that material as quite misleading, myself, selected to suggest a narrative rather than to marshall the data.

In particular the last part, attributed to Ramsay MacMullen, is wrong -- the statement is found in the 13th century scholiast to Dionysius bar Salibi, not in the author.

Returning to the Christmas theme, I do have something new to add, which I learned from (of all places) Acharya S, in "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus connection". I'm sure we're all familiar with how dismal these books are; this one is considerably better, tho.

There is a Google books preview, and on p.89 I found mention of a second witness to the idea of the pagan celebration on December 25. The reference is to the "Calendar of Antiochus of Athens".

During December I tracked this down and translated it. It doesn't really back up the claim made, but it is still interesting. Antiochus was an astrologer, and his calendar is an example of "parapegma" or peg-calendars. It is dedicated to the risings and settings of stars (for obvious reasons). It also lists the date of the Nile flood. After translating it, I came across a real translation by Daryn Lehoux (details here) which is also online in preview. My own translation of December, with text, is here.

Here's an excerpt:


κβʹ. τροπὴ χειμερινή. 22. Winter solstice.
κγʹ. Προκύων ἑῷος δύνει. 23. Procyon sets in the east.
κεʹ. Ἡλίου γενέθλιον · αὔξει φῶς. 25. Birth of the sun : the light grows.


The solstices are mentioned, of course; but it is interesting what he says about Dec. 25.

None of this backs up Acharya S.' claim of a festival on 25 Dec. (no surprise), which remains attested only in the Chronography of 354; but it is interesting supplementary material.
There are at least two other Roman calendars sourced from the epoch between the 1st and the 4th century Chronography of 354:
1. P.Dura 54 (title of this thread)
2. Fresco state calender discovered under Santa Maria Maggiore
The first is fragmentary and may not represent December, but I think the second does record some Roman festivals during December. There are some details and references in the other thread. What precisely is being sought though - a festival in Dec 25th?

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Censorinus and Prudentius attest that VIII Kal. Ian (i.e. 25 Dec.) is the solstice, so I think we can take it that ordinary people marked it as if it was, while educated people like Antiochus or Julian the Apostate knew it wasn't quite.
Perhaps this variance can be explained by the precession of the equinoxes between the 1st and 4th century (one degree every 70 odd years?).
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:10 AM   #32
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There are at least two other Roman calendars sourced from the epoch between the 1st and the 4th century Chronography of 354:
I'd like to see many more of these things online. (There are also various astrological calendars, all published by Boll in Griechische Kalendar, and placed online at Archive.org by me, but none of relevance).

Quote:
1. P.Dura 54 (title of this thread)
2. Fresco state calender discovered under Santa Maria Maggiore
The first is fragmentary and may not represent December, but I think the second does record some Roman festivals during December. There are some details and references in the other thread.
I was able to find a translation of the first at Google books in preview, here, Rome and its Empire, AD 193-284 By Olivier Hekster, p.127-129.

Is there anything else online about these, do you know?

UPDATE: The latter was discovered in 1966 and published as F. Magi, Il calendario dipinto sotto Santa Maria Maggiore 1972. There is a JSTOR article here www.jstor.org/stable/284130 (which of course I cannot see) by Michele Salzman on the date of this calendar. I was able to find this link in Italian about it.

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What precisely is being sought though - a festival in Dec 25th?
Yes, or around the solstice. If the argument is "the celebration of Christmas is derived from the Roman celebrations of the winter solstice", then data around that is what we need to see.

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Quote:
Censorinus and Prudentius attest that VIII Kal. Ian (i.e. 25 Dec.) is the solstice, so I think we can take it that ordinary people marked it as if it was, while educated people like Antiochus or Julian the Apostate knew it wasn't quite.
Perhaps this variance can be explained by the precession of the equinoxes between the 1st and 4th century (one degree every 70 odd years?).
Interesting, and this I had not heard.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:16 AM   #33
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26. The Feriale Duranum (Reign of Severus Alexander) Translated from the Greek

Column I

The Kalends of January:...
3 days before the Nones of January: because vows are discharged and announced, and for the safety of our lord Marcus Aurelius Severus Alexander Augustus and for the everlasting empire of the Roman people, to Jupiter Optimus Maximus a male ox, to Juno a female ox, to Minerva a female ox, to Jupiter Victor a male ox,... to Father Mars a bull, to Mars Victor a bull, to Victory a female ox ...
7 days before the Ides of January: because honourable discharge is granted to those who have served out their time along, with the right of privileges; also because salaries are paid out to the soldiers, to Jupiter Optimus Maximus a male ox, to Juno a female ox, to Minerva a female ox, to Safety a female ox, to Father Mars a bull ...
6 days before the Ides of January: for the birthday of the divine empress ..., to the divine ... public prayer.
... days before the Ides of January: for the birthday of Lucius Seius Caesar, father-in-law of the Augustus, a male ox to the genius of Lucius Seius Caesar, father in-law of the Augustus.
9 days before the Kalends of February: for the birthday of the divine Hadrian, to the divine Hadrian a male ox.
5 days before the Kalends of February: for the Arabian and Adiabenine and most great Parthian victories of the divine Severus and for the start of the reign of the divine Trajan, to Parthian Victory a female ox, to the divine Trajan a male ox.
1 day before the Nones of February: for the start of the reign of the divine Antoninus Magnus ..., to the divine Antoninus Magnus a male ox.
The Kalends of March: for the rites of the birthday of Father Mars Victor, a bull to Father Mars Victor.
1 day before the Nones of March: for the start of the reign of the divine Marcus Antoninus and of the divine Lucius Verus, to the divine Marcus a male ox, to the divine Lucius a male ox.
3 days before the Ides of March: because emperor Caesar Marcus Aurelius Severus Alexander was acclaimed emperor, to Jupiter a male ox, to Juno a female ox, to Minerva a female ox,... to Mars a male ox; and because emperor Caesar Marcus Aurelius Severus Alexander Augustus was first acclaimed emperor by the soldiers public prayer.
1 day before the Ides of March: because Alexander, our Augustus, was acclaimed Augustus, pater patriae and pontifex maximus, public prayer; to the genius of our lord Alexander Augustus a bull.

Column II

14 days before the Kalends of April: for the day of the festival of the Quinquatria, public prayer; through to 10 days before the Kalends, the same public prayers.
1 day before the Nones of April: for the birthday of the divine Antoninus Magnus, to the divine Antoninus a male ox.
5 days before the Ides of April: for the start of the reign of the divine Pius Severus, to the divine Pius Severus a male ox.
3 days before the Ides of April: for the birthday of the divine Pius Severus, to the divine Pius Severus a male ox.
11 days before the Kalends of May: for the birthday of the eternal city of Rome, to the eternal city of Rome a female ox.
6 days before the Kalends of May: for the birthday of the divine Marcus Antoninus, to the divine Marcus Antoninus a male ox.
The Nones of May: for the birthday of the divine Julia Maesa, to the divine Julia Maesa public prayer.
6 days before the Ides of May: for the Rose festival of the standards, public prayer.
4 days before the Ides of May: for the games of Mars, to Father Mars the Avenger a bull.
12 days before the Kalends of June: because the divine Pius Severus was acclaimed emperor by ..., ... to the divine Pius Severus.
9 days before the Kalends of June: for the birthday of Germanicus Caesar, public prayer to the memory of Germanicus Caesar.
1 day before the Kalends of June: for the Rose festival of the standards, public prayer.
4 days before the Ides of June: for the festival of Vesta, to Mother Vesta public prayer.
5 days before the Kalends of July: because our lord Marcus Aurelius Severus Alexander was acclaimed Caesar and donned the toga of manhood, to the genius of Alexander Augustus a bull.
The Kalends of July: because Alexander, our Augustus, was first elected consul, public prayer.
4 days before the Nones of July: for the birthday of the divine Matidia, to the divine Matidia public prayer.
6 days before the Ides of July: for the start of the reign of the divine Antoninus Pius, to the divine Antoninus Pius a male ox.
4 days before the Ides of July: for the birthday of the divine Julius, to the divine Julius a male ox.
10 days before the Kalends of August: for the day of the festival of Neptune, immolatory public prayer.
The Kalends of August: for the birthday of the divine Claudius and the divine Pertinax, to the divine Claudius a male ox, to the divine Pertinax a male ox. The Nones of August: for the games of Safety, to Safety a female ox. ... before the Kalends of September: for the birthday of Mamaea Augusta, mother of our Augustus, to the Juno of Mamaea Augusta ... ...for...
... before the Kalends of September: for the birthday of the divine Marciana, to the divine Marciana public prayer.

Column III

1 day before the Kalends of September: for the birthday of the divine Commodus, to the divine Commodus a male ox. 7 days before the Ides of September ...
14 days before the Kalends of October: for the birthday of the divine Trajan and for the start of the reign of the divine Nerva, to the divine Trajan a male ox, to the divine Nerva a male ox.
13 days before the Kalends of October: for the birthday of the divine Antoninus Pius, to the divine Antoninus Pius a male ox.
... before the Kalends of October: for the birthday of the divine Faustina, to the divine Faustina public prayer.
9 days before the Kalends of October: for the birthday of the divine Augustus, to the divine Augustus a male ox.
[...]
[...]
[...] of November [...] [...]
[...]
[...] the Kalends [...1

Column IV

16 days before the Kalends of January ..., ... public prayer; through to 10 days before the Kalends the same ...
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:57 PM   #34
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Default Of all people Roger should have JSTOR access .... and we should make it happen.

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I was able to find a translation of the first at Google books in preview, here, Rome and its Empire, AD 193-284 By Olivier Hekster, p.127-129.

Is there anything else online about these, do you know?
Only at JSTOR.

Quote:
UPDATE: The latter was discovered in 1966 and published as F. Magi, Il calendario dipinto sotto Santa Maria Maggiore 1972. There is a JSTOR article here www.jstor.org/stable/284130 (which of course I cannot see) by Michele Salzman on the date of this calendar. ......
Hi Roger,

Have you exhausted all avenues of getting JSTOR access? Only very recently I discovered that here in Australia, along with the membership services available in joining the NSW State Library, is JSTOR access. The access sometimes does not permit one to save copies of the JSTOR pdf's, but certainly allows one to read them. The cost of membership to the state library is zero, they send out a membership card, and the card number is used to gain access to many online journal databases, JSTOR being one.

So the question becomes do any of the main public libraries in London provide a similar service for their members, and is membership free (or a small cost?).

Pledge of Acknowledgement

As far as I have seen in my research into various matters, the work that you have done in presenting ancient manuscripts on the internet surpasses all other websites both personal and academic, and as far as I am concerned you of all people must have access to JSTOR.

Reality quips that we could be dead tomorrow. My personal belief systems are thus rendered in a secondary light to the extent that I myself can personally see that the service that you are providing in the field of information in the field of ancient history surpasses the efforts of all individuals and most academic institutions, and that JSTOR access will even further raise the calibre and comprehensiveness of your publications. The benefits will flow to the public at large.

As outlandish as it may appear I would like to make sure that somehow, very soon, you obtain access to JSTOR. Please check your main state library membership services, and let me know if any opportunities exist in that direction, and if not, whether subscription to membership of any University Associations (or Uni Libraries) automatically grants student access, and thus JSTOR access.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:01 AM   #35
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Have you exhausted all avenues of getting JSTOR access? Only very recently I discovered that here in Australia, along with the membership services available in joining the NSW State Library, is JSTOR access. The access sometimes does not permit one to save copies of the JSTOR pdf's, but certainly allows one to read them. The cost of membership to the state library is zero, they send out a membership card, and the card number is used to gain access to many online journal databases, JSTOR being one.

So the question becomes do any of the main public libraries in London provide a similar service for their members, and is membership free (or a small cost?).
It's an interesting question. I can only get JSTOR access by physically travelling to university libraries, where I have a reader's card. The JSTOR terms don't apparently allow them to give me offsite access, which is a pain. That seems to be general in the UK.

However I have discovered that a local college has access, and I have emailed them to see if I can beg some access through them. One university did offer me access, but on condition that I did unpaid work for them, and I simply haven't the time to do that.

But the issue is a general one: why should this resource be inaccessible to those of us whose taxes pay for it? I quite understand how JSTOR ended up in the position it has -- for practical reasons. But it isn't good to learn that our taxes are funding free access for privileged people in the Third World, for ideological reasons, while we can't use it ourselves.

Quote:
As far as I have seen in my research into various matters, the work that you have done in presenting ancient manuscripts on the internet surpasses all other websites both personal and academic, and as far as I am concerned you of all people must have access to JSTOR.
That's very kind, but in truth I rarely actually need it. It's just useful sometimes. I generally find that most of the content of JSTOR consists of reviews of books; interesting, but not critical. Although this again is changing.

What we all need is better access to all sorts of books and articles, and I think this will come. Even manuscript libraries, who have fought tooth and nail for years to keep mss offline, are now coming online. It is just so crushingly obvious that this material needs to be online, even to the dullest clerk. We're just in a transitional period.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 01-25-2011, 01:30 PM   #36
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Censorinus and Prudentius attest that VIII Kal. Ian (i.e. 25 Dec.) is the solstice, so I think we can take it that ordinary people marked it as if it was, while educated people like Antiochus or Julian the Apostate knew it wasn't quite.
Perhaps this variance can be explained by the precession of the equinoxes between the 1st and 4th century (one degree every 70 odd years?).
Interesting, and this I had not heard.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
I don't think the precession of the equinoxes is the right correction factor. The relevant factor may be the difference between the tropical (seasonal) year and the (Julian) calendar year. According to wiki/Winter_solstice at the time of Julius Caesar the Winter Solstice was around December the 25th, but by the time of Nicea this had shifted to around the 22nd. It later shifted still earlier in the month but the replacement of the Julian calendar by the Gregorian one restored things back to Nicea but not back to Julius.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:27 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
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Quote:
Censorinus and Prudentius attest that VIII Kal. Ian (i.e. 25 Dec.) is the solstice, so I think we can take it that ordinary people marked it as if it was, while educated people like Antiochus or Julian the Apostate knew it wasn't quite.
Perhaps this variance can be explained by the precession of the equinoxes between the 1st and 4th century (one degree every 70 odd years?).
Interesting, and this I had not heard.
I don't think the precession of the equinoxes is the right correction factor. The relevant factor may be the difference between the tropical (seasonal) year and the (Julian) calendar year. According to wiki/Winter_solstice at the time of Julius Caesar the Winter Solstice was around December the 25th, but by the time of Nicea this had shifted to around the 22nd.
Hi Andrew,

The precession rate of about one degree for every 72 years also needs to be understood with reference to the zodiac employed. Today there are two zodiacs - the tropical (or solar) zodiac and the sidereal zodiac. Today they are divergent about 25 degrees and are slowly drifting apart due to precession. If we are to extrapolate backwards and ask at which epoch the two zodiacs were once one (I when they agreed in one zodiac) then this epoch brings us back to around about the Council of Nicaea.

Quote:
It later shifted still earlier in the month but the replacement of the Julian calendar by the Gregorian one restored things back to Nicea but not back to Julius.
The Gregorian calendar introduces an algorithm by which the date of Easter is always integrated into the "human and man-made" calendar at a "floating but fixed day". Here is one commentator puts it:

Quote:
Sosigenes was, undoubtedly, aware of precession as were the early fathers of the Church. Precession was known around 200 AD (See, Origen, early Christian scholar and theologian) but denied by the early fathers of the Christian church. One reason for the denial of precession is because 'precession' suggested a Sun Centered solar system which was considered heresy (See, Galileo). Sosigenes secretly, (it seems) included precession in his calculations but did not discuss the matter. Anyhow, they (Council of Nicaea) changed the Vernal Equinox rather than disrupting the evolving church doctrine.

This act of changing the Vernal Equinox also changed the zodiac because the resulting 4-day change (rather than admit to precession and heresy) shifted the place of 1° Aries by 4 degrees on top of any original zodiac errors (?) from The Julian Reform in 46 BC. This event was also the beginning of the end for astrology as a legitmate activity (religion) because 'astrology' then went from the actual positions of heavenly bodies to the tropical fiction of the calendar, not to metion the continually scrambled zodiac because of calendar changes.
My notes on this can be reviewed here.

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 01-25-2011, 04:35 PM   #38
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It's an interesting question. I can only get JSTOR access by physically travelling to university libraries, where I have a reader's card. The JSTOR terms don't apparently allow them to give me offsite access, which is a pain. That seems to be general in the UK.
One might expect that library members should be able to access JSTOR at the library itself, just as any student should be able to access JSTOR at a Uni library. Offsite access is the next logical step for students.

I have PM'd the address of the standard offsite access page presented by the NSW State library so that you might see whether any of your local libraries might be offering a similar arrangement.

At any rate, good luck in getting a permanent access mode established.

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:54 AM   #39
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I have PM'd the address of the standard offsite access page presented by the NSW State library so that you might see whether any of your local libraries might be offering a similar arrangement.
Nothing arrived...?
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:04 AM   #40
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I've now got Salzman's article on the calendar under Santa Maria Maggiore. Here's the start of it:

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The Calendar at Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome has been known since 1966 when, in the course of repairs on the foundations of the church, Vatican workmen uncovered an ancient Roman building and an illustrated calendar painted in fresco on its two facing walls. The painting is so deteriorated as to be almost invisible; but we can see that the days of each month are indicated on red vertical panels painted next to corresponding illustrations. Of the first semester there remain only fragments of the calendar, sufficient merely to testify to its arrangement; no figural representation or textual evidence can be read. Preserved in the second semester are the fragmentary texts of four months-October, November, December and July-and four illustrations-September, November, December and August-but all much deteriorated. The most complete illustration, September, shows a country scene in which workers harvest fruit on the grounds of a country villa where a sacrifice is being performed. On the basis of this illustration and the fragmentary remains of November, illustrated by men with a plough and with poles, we can imagine that the remaining months would have been similarly represented by seasonal activities.

Filippo Magi excavated and published the remains in 1972.' On the basis of the inclusion of certain public holidays, identified with victories of the ruling house of Constantine, and of the similarities to the famous codex Calendar of A.D. 354, Magi dated the Santa Maria Maggiore Calendar to the period between A.D. 299/332 and 354. The brickwork under the Calendar and the style of the illustrations, according to Magi's analysis, were consistent with his dating.2 Nevertheless, the dating of the Calendar continues to puzzle scholars of many disciplines. Classicists would like a more firmly fixed chronology for the calendar cycle; art historians have been concerned with the style of the painted illustrations; and topographers with the settlement of the Esquiline Hill. ...

The significance of this Calendar and the difficulties in dating it cannot be overestimated. Although some forty-seven fragmentary fasti have survived in Italy, inscribed on stone or painted on walls, the Santa Maria Maggiore Calendar is the only extant Roman calendar between the first century A.D. and the Calender of 354.3 Before its discovery, our only evidence for this three-hundred-year period were two fragmentary ferialia (select lists of festivals) for military detachments, one in Egypt (A.D. 169-176?) and the other at Dura-Europus (A.D. 225).4 And since the Santa Maria Maggiore discovery, only one other very fragmentary inscription, also dating to this period, has been identified as a feriale in Bolsena, Italy.5 If Magi's dating is correct, the Santa Maria Maggiore Calendar would provide a unique document for the history of Roman calendars and Roman religion.
Unfortunately it does not give us the text, for which it refers us to Magi's publication:

F. Magi, Il Calendario dipinto sotto S. Maria Maggiore = MemPontAcc XI.1 (Rome
1972) 1-103.

I can't imagine how to obtain access to that, tho, short of travelling to a library with a copy.
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