Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 05-29-2010, 11:21 AM

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Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your post is a most BLATANT HORRENDOUS mis-representation.

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...there are verses in Scripture in which the divine command to sacrifice the first born male appears to be unconditional. For example, Ex 13: 1-2 stipulates: “The Lord spoke further to Moses, saying, “Consecrate to Me every first-born; man and beast, the first issue of every womb among the Israelites is Mine.” Ex 22:28-29 reads, “You shall not put off the skimming of the first yield of your vats. You shall give Me the first-born among your sons. You shall do the same with your cattle and your flocks: seven days it shall remain with its mother; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.” In neither verse do we find a mitigating qualification.

Moreover, there is also evidence in Scripture that child sacrifice was not only practiced in Israel, perhaps as late as 500 B.C.E., but that it may very well have been part of the official cultus rather than an alien, pagan intrusion. The most intriguing hint that such might indeed have been the case occurs in the words of the Prophet Ezekiel who depicts YHVH as mounting a crescendo of accusations against “Jerusalem” that culminates in the following condemnation:

You even took the sons and daughters that you bore to Me and sacrificed them to those [images] as food.—as if your harlotries were not enough, you slaughtered My children and presented them as offerings to them. (Ezek 16:20-21.)

Moreover, there is a very strange passage in Ezekiel in which the prophet apparently admits that the rituals he abhors were actually practiced by men and women who regarded them as an authentic expression of Yahvism: “I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live: When they set aside every first issue of the womb, I defiled them by their very gifts—that I might render them desolate, that they might know that I am the Lord. (Ez 20: 25-26)

Ed Noort, a Dutch scholar, has called this passage ““the most peculiar sentence on the role of torah (sic) in the Hebrew Bible,” noting that “It is YHVH himself who provides the laws leading to death instead of life. He allows Israel to taint itself by the sacrifice of the firstborn.”[4] Ezekiel’s depiction of YHVH giving Israel “laws leading to death” is consistent with Noort’s view that in contemporary scholarship, “The picture of the black-and-white oppositions between Baalism and Yahwism has disappeared.”

The Religion of Sacrifice and Abraham, Isaac and Jesus
by Richard L. Rubenstein (October 2009)

But, JESUS was the FIRSTBORN of Mary and TWO BIRDS were SACRIFICED for JESUS.

You are BLATANTLY and GROSSLY mis-representing HEBREW SCRIPTURE. THERE is no LAW or COMMANDMENT of God to the JEWS that a FIRSTBORN male was to be KILLED on the EIGHT day.

Please stop wasting time.

Please name the JEWISH firstborn males who were killed on the EIGHT day as a sacrifice!

In the story book, Joseph and Mary did NOT KILL JESUS on the eight day but circumcised him instead and sacrificed two birds.

jgreen44 · 05-29-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, JESUS was the FIRSTBORN of Mary and TWO BIRDS were SACRIFICED for JESUS.

And then Jesus himself, the human, was sacrificed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You are BLATANTLY and GROSSLY mis-representing HEBREW SCRIPTURE.

I gave you a cite. It's not just me who sees evidence of human sacrifice among OT Jews. Scholars see this too. And what's with all the caps? Why is this issue so emotionally important to you? It's kind of ironic. You think Paul is a fictional character but the ancient Hebrews absolutely positively must not ever have engaged in human sacrifice. I don't get it. Are you Jewish?

aa5874 · 05-29-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, JESUS was the FIRSTBORN of Mary and TWO BIRDS were SACRIFICED for JESUS.

And then Jesus himself, the human, was sacrificed.

But, that is COMPLETELY FALSE, Jesus was NOT KILLED for a sacrifice on the EIGHT day.

The passage in Exodus 22.29-30 does NOT support INFANTICIDE.

- Exodus 22:29-30

Quote:

29 You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.

30 You shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep It shall be with its mother seven days, on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You are BLATANTLY and GROSSLY mis-representing HEBREW SCRIPTURE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

I gave you a cite. It's not just me who sees evidence of human sacrifice among OT Jews. Scholars see this too. And what's with all the caps? Why is this issue so emotionally important to you? It's kind of ironic. You think Paul is a fictional character but the ancient Hebrews absolutely positively must not ever have engaged in human sacrifice. I don't get it. Are you Jewish?

You have taken the two verses of Exodus completely out of context to misrepresent Exodus 22.

Exodus 22 does not support INFANTICIDE.

I have asked you to name the FIRSTBORN Jews who were KILLED as a SACRIFICE on the EIGHT day and you SIMPLY cannot.

I just absolutely DETEST when you present barefaced out-of-context information hoping to win arguments.

It matters not whether I am a Jew or not, or that I support the theory that Paul was a fabricated 1st century character, it is CLEAR in HEBREW Scripture that there was NO LAW or COMMANDMENT that JEWS should KILL their FIRSTBORN male child on the EIGHT DAY.

Cege · 05-29-2010, 03:22 PM

I did not
get from jgreen44's comments that he meant to say Jesus was sacrificied on the eighth day, or that any other Jewish children were.

Firstborn Jewish males were to be dedicated to God, as Samuel was. That was something of a sacrifice on the parents' behalf. They were also to be circumcised on the eighth day.

There are various examples in the OT where God supposedly directed his people to kill every living enemy person, including newborns and unborns. If that isn't infanticide, I don't know what is.

jgreen44 · 05-29-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, that is COMPLETELY FALSE, Jesus was NOT KILLED for a sacrifice on the EIGHT day.

I was referring to his sacrificial death at the age of 33 or 54, depending upon whom you ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I have asked you to name the FIRSTBORN Jews who were KILLED as a SACRIFICE on the EIGHT day and you SIMPLY cannot.

I will name the FIRSTBORN Jews killed as a sacrifice on the EIGHT day when you name the FIRSTBORN Jews slaughtered by Herod. Your question is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I just absolutely DETEST when you present barefaced out-of-context information hoping to win arguments.

I don't think I'm trying to win an argument so much as simply present a case. You obviously don't agree with the case I am making, nevertheless, there is a case to be made for Jews having, once upon a time, practiced human sacrifice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

it is CLEAR in HEBREW Scripture that there was NO LAW or COMMANDMENT that JEWS should KILL their FIRSTBORN male child on the EIGHT DAY.

OK. But can't a fella read between the lines every once in a while?

Solo · 05-29-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

IN EFFECT, Once JESUS was the son of God and was offered as a sacrifice to GOD by God then GOD SINNED.

It's definitely that.

Jiri

Joan of Bark · 05-29-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Ah, so when the Hebrews killed the Canaanites, or an animal for food, or stepped on an ant, they were breaking one of YHWH's commandments?

... or are you just pulling my leg?

Are you just pulling mine? You MUST READ the Bible for YOURSELF.

You seem not to understand that JEWS in antiquity were allowed to KILL certain animals for FOOD or for SACRIFICE, that JEWS were allowed to KILL their enemies under certain circumstances but were NOT allowed to KILL their first born males as a SACRIFICE.

Once you read the Bible, I read the KJV, it would be noted that in the JESUS STORY of gLuke that JESUS being the first born of the Virgin Mary TWO BIRDS were SACRIFICED for JESUS.

See Luke 2.22-24.

I have read the Bible for myself, and you are completely missing my point. Reading the commandment as: "you shall not kill" contradicts your own post! You agree that Jews were allowed to kill animals, so obviously the commandment cannot be: "you shall not kill" but "you shall not murder". This is the translation used by the NIV, the NASB, the NLT, the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion, the Encyclopedia of Judaism, the Contemporary English Version, Richard E. Friedman in his Commentary on the Torah (or via: amazon.co.uk), as well as the Hebrew Bible in English.

I am making no comment whatsoever on Jesus and his 'sacrifice'. I was correcting you on a point of translation. (And BTW, Bart Ehrman and others have called the KJV a poor translation based on inferior late texts. He suggests the Revised Standard Version).

aa5874 · 05-29-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Are you just pulling mine? You MUST READ the Bible for YOURSELF.

You seem not to understand that JEWS in antiquity were allowed to KILL certain animals for FOOD or for SACRIFICE, that JEWS were allowed to KILL their enemies under certain circumstances but were NOT allowed to KILL their first born males as a SACRIFICE.

Once you read the Bible, I read the KJV, it would be noted that in the JESUS STORY of gLuke that JESUS being the first born of the Virgin Mary TWO BIRDS were SACRIFICED for JESUS.

See Luke 2.22-24.

I have read the Bible for myself, and you are completely missing my point. Reading the commandment as: "you shall not kill" contradicts your own post! You agree that Jews were allowed to kill animals, so obviously the commandment cannot be: "you shall not kill" but "you shall not murder". This is the translation used by the NIV, the NASB, the NLT, the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion, the Encyclopedia of Judaism, the Contemporary English Version, Richard E. Friedman in his Commentary on the Torah (or via: amazon.co.uk), as well as the Hebrew Bible in English.

I am making no comment whatsoever on Jesus and his 'sacrifice'. I was correcting you on a point of translation. (And BTW, Bart Ehrman and others have called the KJV a poor translation based on inferior late texts. He suggests the Revised Standard Version).

I did not make any mistake I pointed out what was in the KJV of Exodus

The KJV of Exodus 20.13 does state "Thou shalt not kill"

You ought to know that unlawful killing may be murder.

aa5874 · 05-29-2010, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, that is COMPLETELY FALSE, Jesus was NOT KILLED for a sacrifice on the EIGHT day.

I was referring to his sacrificial death at the age of 33 or 54, depending upon whom you ask.

But, did you not make reference to Exodus 22.29-30 where a SACRIFICE was to be carried out on the EIGHT day?

Jesus did NOT BLASPHEME the name of the JEWISH GOD on the EIGHT day after he was born according to gLuke.

Look at Exodus 22.29-30 again.
- Exodus 22:29-30

Quote:

29 You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.

30 You shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep It shall be with its mother seven days, on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

I will name the FIRSTBORN Jews killed as a sacrifice on the EIGHT day when you name the FIRSTBORN Jews slaughtered by Herod. Your question is ridiculous.

Well, you will still have to name the FIRSTBORN Jews killed as a sacrifice on the EIGHT day. You won't get away.

I will name the FIRSTBORN Jews killed by Herod in gMatthew. There are NO names, the story is FICTION.

Now, please give me the names of the FIRSTBORN Jews killed as a sacrifice on the EIGHT day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen

I don't think I'm trying to win an argument so much as simply present a case. You obviously don't agree with the case I am making, nevertheless, there is a case to be made for Jews having, once upon a time, practiced human sacrifice.

You have no case. Even God according to the Bible TEMPTED Abraham to KILL his own son and even when ABRAHAM was just about to KILL his son for a BURNT offering the very God sent a RAM for Abraham.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

it is CLEAR in HEBREW Scripture that there was NO LAW or COMMANDMENT that JEWS should KILL their FIRSTBORN male child on the EIGHT DAY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen

OK. But can't a fella read between the lines every once in a while?

Well, now you admit that that HEBREW Scripture does not support INFANTICIDE.

There is nothing in between any lines of HEBREW Scripture to support the KILLING of EIGHT DAY OLD MALE BABIES.

Joan of Bark · 05-30-2010, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I have read the Bible for myself, and you are completely missing my point. Reading the commandment as: "you shall not kill" contradicts your own post! You agree that Jews were allowed to kill animals, so obviously the commandment cannot be: "you shall not kill" but "you shall not murder". This is the translation used by the NIV, the NASB, the NLT, the Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion, the Encyclopedia of Judaism, the Contemporary English Version, Richard E. Friedman in his Commentary on the Torah (or via: amazon.co.uk), as well as the Hebrew Bible in English.

I am making no comment whatsoever on Jesus and his 'sacrifice'. I was correcting you on a point of translation. (And BTW, Bart Ehrman and others have called the KJV a poor translation based on inferior late texts. He suggests the Revised Standard Version).

I did not make any mistake I pointed out what was in the KJV of Exodus

The KJV of Exodus 20.13 does state "Thou shalt not kill"

You ought to know that unlawful killing may be murder.

Unlawful killing is always murder. That's the definition of murder! My point -- stated yet again -- is that the correct translation cannot possibly be kill, as that would make any killing -- of people or animals -- a breaking of the commandment. The KJV is a poor translation of the Bible, and this is a perfect example of why.

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05-29-2010, 03:22 PM	#74
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	I did not get from jgreen44's comments that he meant to say Jesus was sacrificied on the eighth day, or that any other Jewish children were. Firstborn Jewish males were to be dedicated to God, as Samuel was. That was something of a sacrifice on the parents' behalf. They were also to be circumcised on the eighth day. There are various examples in the OT where God supposedly directed his people to kill every living enemy person, including newborns and unborns. If that isn't infanticide, I don't know what is.

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