sschlichter

yes, but the blessing of the covenant of Abraham caused ALL families to be blessed, not all Abraham's families.

you don't look. Jonah is a perfect example of God's cocern for Getniles. How many such examples do you need to make it true?

No, I did not. The Jews alone received his covenant. Salvation was only from the Jews. I gave you examples of salvation that came from the Jews, such as was brought from Jonah.

God wanted Israel to be a light to the gentiles:

(Lev 18:26) You yourselves must obey my statutes and my regulations and must not do any of these abominations, both the native citizen and the resident foreigner in your midst,

Lev 19:10 You must not pick your vineyard bare, and you must not gather up the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You must leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:33 When a foreigner resides with you in your land, you must not oppress him.

Lev 19:34 The foreigner who resides with you must be to you like a native citizen among you; so you must love him as yourself, because you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Lev 23:22 When you gather in the harvest of your land, you must not completely harvest the corner of your field, and you must not gather up the gleanings of your harvest. You must leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the LORD your God.' "

Lev 24:22 There will be one regulation for you, whether a foreigner or a native citizen, for I am the LORD your God.' "

Lev 25:6 You may have the Sabbath produce of the land to eat - you, your male servant, your female servant, your hired worker, the resident foreigner who stays with you,

Num 9:14 If a resident foreigner lives among you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, he must do so according to the statute of the Passover, and according to its custom. You must have the same statute for the resident foreigner and for the one who was born in the land.' "

Num 15:14 If a resident foreigner is living with you - or whoever is among you in future generations - and prepares an offering made by fire as a pleasing aroma to the LORD, he must do it the same way you are to do it.

Num 15:15 One statute must apply to you who belong to the congregation and to the resident foreigner who is living among you, as a permanent statute for your future generations. You and the resident foreigner will be alike before the LORD.

Num 15:16 One law and one custom must apply to you and to the resident foreigner who lives alongside you.' "

Num 19:10 The one who gathers the ashes of the heifer must wash his clothes and be ceremonially unclean until evening. This will be a permanent ordinance both for the Israelites and the resident foreigner who lives among them.

Num 35:15 These six towns will be places of refuge for the Israelites, and for the foreigner, and for the settler among them, so that anyone who kills any person accidentally may flee there.

Deut 1:16 I furthermore admonished your judges at that time that they should pay attention to issues among your fellow citizens and judge fairly, whether between one citizen and another or a citizen and a resident foreigner.

Deut 5:14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. On that day you must not do any work, you, your son, your daughter, your male slave, your female slave, your ox, your donkey, any other animal, or the foreigner who lives with you, so that your male and female slaves, like yourself, may have rest.

Deut 10:19 So you must love the resident foreigner because you were foreigners in the land of Egypt.

Deut 23:7 You must not hate an Edomite, for he is your relative; you must not hate an Egyptian, for you lived as a foreigner in his land.

Deut 24:17 You must not pervert justice due a resident foreigner or an orphan, or take a widow's garment as security for a loan.

Deut 24:19 Whenever you reap your harvest in your field and leave some unraked grain there, you must not return to get it; it should go to the resident foreigner, orphan, and widow so that the LORD your God may bless all the work you do.

Deut 24:20 When you beat your olive tree you must not repeat the procedure; the remaining olives belong to the resident foreigner, orphan, and widow.

Deut 24:21 When you gather the grapes of your vineyard you must not do so a second time; they should go to the resident foreigner, orphan, and widow.

Deut 27:19 'Cursed is the one who perverts justice for the resident foreigner, the orphan, and the widow.' Then all the people will say, 'Amen!'


(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Here the author uses the elohim. 'Gods' in the generic sense.

(Gen 2:4) The Creation of Man and Woman
This is the account of the heavens and
the earth when they were created - when the LORD God made the earth and heavens.

Here the author uses the national name for God as well making sure it was clear that we are talking about the same God. The only God.

lifestyle? the lifestyle of the people in question was to sacrifice their children. They would heat up the open hands of their idol and place their children on them to cook.

Jeremiah revealed the new covenant.

Lay people began reading the Bible at the Reformation when it became affordable.

~Steve

storytime

Steve

The god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was not the only god in those days. There were many gods. You are merely reading a story about one of those gods, the Hebrew god.

All the families of Abraham were covenanted in his name via circumcision. Therefore, all the other families of other gods were not blessed.

How many examples do I need to believe these stories are true? None. I realize these were stories for Hebrews. Remember the talking snake? The donkey who could speak? The flying chariots? Lakes of fire? An invisible god?

I read it as God wanting the priests whom he had chosen to be a light to Israel because they were the mouth of God who spoke the law of God to the other tribes. (Malachi) Tribes were sometimes called cities and nations. Also, it was prohibited for Jews to teach Torah to Gentiles. Why? Because Gentiles were uncircumcised and idol worshipers.

You have quoted laws given to Israel concerning sojourners in her land. Still, that doesn't make Gentiles "a people" of God. Seems to me that you are determined to make all people acceptable to the Hebrew god no matter what god says or that Jews are required to be bound by old and new covenant of circumcision and law. Is God shown to be unjust? What you are doing is givng the world a free ride in identity theft at the expense of the Jews.

I think Jerimaiah was speaking of law as the new covenant. For there was not any other covenant. And there was never any Gentile covenant. Peter's vision is a lie. Prophecy ceased in OT as did dreamers of dreams. "For ye have seen nothing!" (Ezek.)

The covenant of circumcision was not a civil standard of legalities and so a legal standard was supplied making the old covenant of circumcision a better covenant. And they called it a new covenant.

The covenant of law in commandments was the completed standard for governance of the people of Israel. It was the word of God for Israel. Why then would God have needed to send a savior or mediator or son to do what he'd already done by established law?

Ordinances and other elements were added also. The Jews say 613 total.

sschlichter

The author of Genesis beleived his God was the only God. (as demonstrated from Gen 1:1 and 2:4). Power and authority over foreign Gods and concern for foreign people are demonstrated throughout the OT. You are ignoring this fact and have not supplied an alternative explanation.

The covenant people were the Jews. The reason for the covenant was to set apart his people for the purpose of blessing all nations thru the seed of Abraham (Gen 12). You are pretending that all families of the earth means Abrahams decendants only when it clearly does not.

You can read this if you are really interested in the new covenant. I do not really see any reason to argue it further here.

~Steve

storytime

The author of Genesis believed his god was the most high god, but recognized that there were many other gods of worship among other people. And other people believed their own gods were the most high, the most powerful. There were in those days competing gods. Gods of choice for the people to choose from. The Hebrew god commanded his people to worship only him and not go after those other gods. Power and authority of the Hebrew god was confined to the Hebrews who believed in their god Yahweh and wrote the story about him. You are ignoring this fact in the story and failing to supply an explanation as to why thousands of other non Hebrew people did not believe in the Hebrew god. You have assumed that the Hebrew god was the champion of gods in those days because you haven't disected the story. You haven't forced yourself to think critically even with the evidence supplied in the story itself. And if you continue to refuse to investigate the many gods, the many beliefs, then you'll remain ignorant and uneducated in ancient cultures and religions, like for example, why did the Hebrews want their own god when other gods were already available to them?

Concerning Abraham's descendants; You are defining Abrahams children[people] by faith alone. But the religion of Abraham progressed forward and required a more sure identity clause. Faith was a necessary firstfruit but works in circumcision sealed the deal, so to speak. Throughout the OT story there is no change in this covenant requirement that established the descendants of Abraham. Later (some say 450 years later), the Israelites receive the Law of Moses in a new and better covenant that instills a standard of civil order among the Israelites. However, the law of Moses did not invalidate the ritual of circumcision and both stood as witness to the identity of Israel as an independent and separate people from other people in the world.

The covenant people was the whole house of Israel, the twelve tribes, not just the Jews[Judah tribe]. All were sealed in circumcision and later law of Moses. And just as the rules applied for joining to the house of Abraham, so they applied to join to the house of Jacob-Israel. Any person who desired to become a Jew and leave their Gentilism behind was required to do as the Jew and become circumcised and agree to keep[observe] the law of Moses.

If you see no reason to discuss points further, then I'm satisfied to leave it as it is here. Thank you for taking the time to discuss these things with me.

:wave:

sschlichter

It is these types of statements that lend me to think that there is nothing going to come of this discussion. You are a presupposition waiting for evidence, and it does not come. When the text says something different from you, you move on to your next presupposition. I enjoy studying other ancient cultures very much. However, this is a biblical criticism forum that I am in.

I am a mono-theist. I do not beleive the underlying premise of the OT is that the Jews wanted a national God. It was God that selected them. The OT illustrates how unhappy they were having a God that they could not make out of wood. Your question is a question built on your presuppostion. It is like me asking you why the God of the universe selected Abraham?

yet, you will not explain the national God of Israels concern for the national enemies of Israel and you will not explain to me how Abraham's deal was sealed before the law and before circumcision.

No, this is revisionist. If you read the article I supplied and have not only an opinion but some grounds for it, then I would be glad to talk about it. The wording of the new covenant is contingent on the law's pre-existence.

yes, until Christ when the terms of the law were fulfilled. The judgment was that no man kept the law as God commanded. The sentence was death which was applied in Christ's vicarious substitutionary death. The new covenant now includes the law written on the hearts of men (as Jeremiah prophesied). The surprise of the gentiles should not have been a surprise. Pride hid this fact from the Jews. Paul says they will come around.

~Steve

aa5874

Genesis 15.6 Do you now see that Jesus was IRRELEVANT?

Abraham was regarded as righteous WITHOUT the Law, circumcision or the crucifixion of Jesus.

The crucifixion of Jesus was IRRELEVANT to Abraham.

All that was necessary for Abraham was his BELIEF in God.

Now, if as you suppose that Jesus fulfilled the Law, why did not any known Jewish writer in the first century ever make such a claim?

Neither Philo or Josephus ever wrote any thing about the Son of the God of the Jews who came to earth and fulfilled the Law.

There is no indication, based on Philo and Josephus, that the Jews were acting contrary to the Scriptures by following the Law, circumcision or using the Holy TEMPLE after the so-called son of the God of the Jews was crucified for blasphemy and ascended through the clouds during the reign of Tiberius.


Based on Paul, it would appear he was the only self-proclaimed Jew to have direct revelations from Jesus and ALL of his revelations from Jesus did COME TRUE, only for the Second Coming.

This cannot be co-incidence.

storytime

[QUOTE=sschlichter;5561644]You mean that when the text says something different than your presupposition you argue against it.

I musta missed that part about the Jews unhappiness in a god of wood. :huh:


I am an atheist who believes that the OT God did not exist until men invented and created him in their image and likeness of how they wanted their god to be.



I explained. You failed or refused to understand due to your set theology in a faith only doctrine.



No, I didn't present a revisionist doctrine.

I read the article you supplied and consider it in error due to the writer not understanding that the Law of Moses was the new covenant written in the hearts and minds of the Israelites. The old covenant was that of circumcision.

Also, the writer supports the law and denies it simutainously. He uses Jerimiah as a crutch for a new covenant made with uncircumcised and lawless people, not recognizing that Jerimiah spoke of the law of Moses which put the word of God in the minds and hearts of Israelites. The new covenant of law was in place before the days of Jerimiah. And, there was never any covenant made with Gentiles in the OT nor predicted for Gentiles in the future. It simply isn't there, otherwise you'd have no problem giving scripture and verse for its establishment. Jesus didn't establish a new covenant with Gentiles. In fact, he excluded Gentiles when saying "I am sent to none but the lost sheep in the House of Israel." You might want to note that Jesus was not sent to the House of Caesar.

Jesus didn't change the law. Some must have kept the law as God commanded, for Jesus recognized the righteous in the law and said these he was not sent to save. Why? Because they were already justified in their obedience to law, and if obedient to law they could not be condemned by the law.


The OT God says every man is responsible for his own sin, and so eliminating the possibility that Jesus could take on the sins of everyone else.


Well, they haven't "come around", and their God and laws and doctrine still excludes Gentiles.

ps. law prevented the Jews from accepting the Gentiles as equals and reason for Jesus excluding them.

sschlichter

[QUOTE=aa5874;5561765]
Genesis 15.6 look closer. what was he promised? what was Eve promised? What did Job beleive?

sschlichter

this is not what he said or meant. Please provide the reference so we know what is getting hacked up to make this claim.

Jesus said that none are righteous. Jesus said those who think they are righteous will not find the need in themselves of salvation. He used the anaology, since you claim to see, I will not heal you of your blindness. It is a lack of repentance. No one who earnestly reads the gospels will get the message that you found.

That is why this conversation is not going to be useful, because you do not beleive language has any meaning besides the meaning you bring to it.

yes, unless Jesus is God


possibly soon.

thank you for a good conversation, but I do not think there is anything left to discuss. You can have the last word if you like.

~Steve

aa5874

[QUOTE=sschlichter;5561902] Look closer at what?

Romans 3.28 Now, if Jesus fulfilled the law, and man is justified by FAITH, then the fulfillment of the law by Jesus was totally unnecessary.

The author has inadvertently made Jesus IRRELEVANT, men are justified by FAITH.

Whether or not Jesus, the son of the God of the Jews came to earth and was crucified, ONCE you believe or have FAITH that he did, then you are justified.

Do you now see that Jesus is IRRELEVANT?