spamandham

Right, but not all of them. That's why I don't think it's fair to label the entire category that way. If you want to say that many Christian scholars are really just well educated apologists, I won't disagree.

I agree, but I think that the idea there is some kind of historical core can also be reasonable and unbiased (though usually isn't).

There is debate as to whether or not there is a historical core to Apollonius of Tyana for example, and I don't think any modern scholars have a stake in that one. The arguments for Jesus and for Apollonius are similar.

Toto

Wanting something to be true is not a good reason to believe.

I don't think that the historical Jesus model is in fact a good model for life. People who aspire to be self-sacrificing saviors of the world do not always do good fro themselves or others. But that's another discussion.

bacht

I'd have to disagree. If the supernaturalism is removed from the NT then there is nothing original in the teachings. I think studying the Proverbs is just as edifying, and there's no distracting chatter about angels, resurrection etc.

No Robots

I like his proverbs:

• They that are whole have no need of the physician but they that are sick.
• Let the dead bury their dead.
• Blind leaders of the blind.
• Who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
• Whited sepulchres.
• It is easier for the camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
• The rich man giveth alms of his superfluity, and the widow—of her lack."
• The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
• Let him that is free from sin cast the first stone.
• It is better to give than to receive.

You don't have to believe that Mozart ever lived in order to appreciate his music, but with Christ the situation is different because all that he is ever really talking about is his own inner experience of his own life. Stripping him of his life is like stripping Mozart of his music.

bacht

To each his own. I've got a lot of these verses stuck in my head from earlier days of study. I prefer to consider other sources for these quotes than any person Jesus.

The idea of radical generosity or radical poverty is fine for those capable of a stringent spirituality, but most people are unable to live like a Cynic.

Mozart was a (very) human person, and his genius is rightly celebrated and enjoyed. Jesus belongs in a different category, maybe with Buddha and a few others, though JC is really a cipher for anonymous early believers.

No Robots

It seems to me that one of the reasons for renewed interest in mythicism is that people are trying to deal with the sick mind-rape inflicted on them by evangelicals. I think that recovery from this is very much like recovery from rape:

• You are the victim. You did nothing wrong.
• What you experienced was violence, not sex (Christ). There is nothing wrong with liking sex (Christ).

GakuseiDon

Ah. You are right. They weren't Toto's words. I owe Toto an apology on my response to the "debunk Christianity" comments.

bacht

That's a bold comparison. I've never been raped so I can't really comment. I entered an Evangelical church voluntarily at the age of 18, no coercion was involved.

What about those of us who aren't interested in anything supernatural or metaphysical? I no longer believe in ghosts or miracles or life after death, how could the NT speak to me? Is there a kingdom of heaven in this life?

Clivedurdle

On unbiased xians, Jefferson when founding the University of Virginia did not allow it a school of divinity nor any chapels!

bacht

I can live with Deists, it's the scriptural literalists/inerrantists that get up my nose.