Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RED DAVE · 07-14-2007, 03:13 PM

[QUOTE=;4617231][QUOTE=;4615954]

From spamandham:

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Why would anyone assume they are biographies rather than religious texts?

From Amedeo:

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Nobody has to assume anything. If you read the Gospels, they tell you of Jesus [or many of them], the circumstamces of his birth and death, what he said to others, and what he did. Whether an account is true or false, it is precisely a biography. Biographies are writen by ordinary men, heroes, prophets, gods, and so forth. The Bible contains many biographies of heroes and, overall, the biography of God from creation to Malachi [ or so], the last reciever of the oracles of God.

What is a religious text? A psalm or poem addressed to God; a message from a God delivered by a prophet or Jesus or Orpheus or Hesiod or other "speaker of things divine." The Gospels are biographies of Jesus which include some of his teachings (theological, moral, apocalyptic). Thus some of the texts in the Gospels are religious, that is, religion-teachings.

There is a difference between a fictional biography and a nonfictional biography.

While there may well be some nonfiction elements in the Gospels, they have to be, in the absence of corroburation, to be fiction.

RED DAVE

Minimalist · 07-14-2007, 04:01 PM

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I set as a target for all those who may wish to disagree
with this assessment, an emminently refutable case. All
that is required to destroy my case is to present one bit
of unambiguous scientific and/or archeological evidence
that anything whatsoever "christian" actually existed
before the rise of Constantine.

I don't believe in any gods (there may have been a Yeshua bar Yosef but he wasn't any 'god') but I'm confused by your assertion. Christians claim that Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny all support a HJ but, Suetonius and Pliny only talk of 'christians' not any Jesus. Tacitus may well be a forgery, just like the Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus but the others remain. Likewise, Celsus lived and wrote before Constantine and he also had negative things to say about Christians. While later churchies burned Celsus' writings Origen was kind enough to preserve enough of his work to refute that we can get the gist of what he said.

Now, and here is where I seek clarification, are you suggesting that the "christians" pre-Constantine and completely different from the post-Constantine "christians?" Or, are you suggesting something else?

ericmurphy · 07-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knupfer

So what evidence do you have the Jesus is not the Son of God? Any?

If not, then the beliefs of atheists come purely from their imaginations which makes them by definition, imaginary beliefs. End of story. :wave:

Wait—all of a sudden, those who doubt that Jesus was the creator of the universe, and that creator's son, now have the burden of proof to show that he wasn't?

I think you've got it exactly backwards, hoss.

Unless I'm getting tripped up by Poe's law.

Arthur · 07-14-2007, 05:21 PM

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Originally Posted by quoting

I'd like to know why you think Jesus didnt exist?

Simple. Because he didn't.

Arthur · 07-14-2007, 05:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Condraz23

I think Jesus Christ did exist

Well, thinking is a start.

ericmurphy · 07-14-2007, 05:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Knupfer

Sorry but the burden of proof is always on the accuser, not the accused. Jesus has made his case. And until you have evidence that he hasn't, then his words stand as true. But atheists always try to avoid the fact that they have absolutely no evidence for their beliefs so they are imaginary beliefs. And that, my friend, is a fact. :wave:

Uh, No. First, you have precious little evidence God even exists. You have equivocal evidence, at best, that Jesus ever existed. Even if Jesus did exist, you have essentially no evidence that he is the son of God (who may or may not exist in the first place).

This isn't criminal court; that's not the kind of burden of proof we're talking about here. You're making a positive claim: that Jesus is the son of God. You have the burden of proof that your claim is true.

How's this? I claim that I am the son of God. Now, using your logic, you have the burden of proof to show that I'm not. Get busy.

spamandham · 07-14-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amedeo

Whether an account is true or false, it is precisely a biography. Biographies are written about ordinary men, heroes, prophets, gods, and so forth. The Bible contains many biographies of heroes and, overall, the biography of God from creation to Malachi [ or so], the last receiver of the oracles of God.

I agree the gospels count as period hero-biographies. I would not call that a 'biography' though, as the latter implies at least an attempt at truth. Instead, I would call it an aretalogy, which does not imply that the author believed the subject to be historical.

spamandham · 07-14-2007, 11:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Arthur

These are the words of a fool who has too much time on his hands.

This type of behavior will not be tolerated for long here, I assure you.

Abomination@21 · 07-14-2007, 11:52 PM

I have not known or heard anyone having a virgin birth, also thinking your part or son of a god, and the all the miracles he "supposed" performed!! Just too unrealistic to believe it all that took place and was real.

DBT · 07-15-2007, 12:13 AM

The myth probably grew around a charismatic preacher going by the name of Yeshuah Ben Joseph. Apparently there was no shortage of itinerant prophets getting around at that time....Simon Magus, etc...

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07-14-2007, 11:52 PM	#79
Abomination@21 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 14	I have not known or heard anyone having a virgin birth, also thinking your part or son of a god, and the all the miracles he "supposed" performed!! Just too unrealistic to believe it all that took place and was real.

07-15-2007, 12:13 AM	#80
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	The myth probably grew around a charismatic preacher going by the name of Yeshuah Ben Joseph. Apparently there was no shortage of itinerant prophets getting around at that time....Simon Magus, etc...

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