Chris Weimer

If you want to be technical about things...

I'm guessing that you're dividing it up into two points - one for being royal and one for a virgin birth. Since Lily was neither pureblood, and since she had Harry through normal copulation with James, then Harry scores a zero here.

But James wasn't a king.

Anakin Skywalker isn't a king - he may be powerful, but he wasn't a king, and according to canon he was just becoming powerful when the twins were born.

This has already been pointed out.

But it's made clear he's not "king", which depending on how you look at it could be represented by either the Minister of Magic or the Headmaster of Hogwarts.

Likewise, he remains subordinate to the actual "king", the emperor. If you look Greek hero myths, actually becoming king is motif, not merely becoming a leader.

Look at this closely - you're really stretching it here.

There's nothing mysterious about it.

No, cremation counts as "burial". Remember, the purpose of burying the dead in Graeco-Roman society was so that they could move on to the underworld - Luke cremating his father allowed him to move on to the other world, which we see at the end of Return of the Jedi when he was with Obi Wan Kenobi.

Since only Luke gained a point, and Anakin and Harry Potter lost them, according to the revaluation, I think it's pretty safe to say that Lord Raglan's scale is far outdated method of determining "heroes" especially in this anachronistic way.

lpetrich

As I'd stated in my OP, I had stated that I now have the entire Harry Potter canon to work from, so yes, some of my discussion of Harry Potter contains stuff from the final book, notably, its epilogue.

That's what I think ought to be done with that criterion.

However, that criterion may count against several of Lord Raglan's input heroes. He came up with that as a sort of shorthand for the hero being his mother's first or only child, which is common. The only exceptions that I know of offhand are Zeus (Kronos swallowed his older brothers and sisters) and Krishna (King Kamsa killed his older brothers).

Strictly speaking, but Lord Raglan's profile is a sort of overall average.

I agree that he wasn't the Emperor, but he was getting close.

(No effort to kill Luke or Leia when they were born...)
I don't recall that from the Star Wars movies or any of the plot summaries I've found; what I did find is that Yoda and Obi-Wan had rescued Luke and Leia preemptively.

True, he's not the one at the absolute top, but being head of the Aurors is neverthless signficant.

(Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader)
Including Hercules? After Hera made him kill his wife and children, he made himself a subject of Eurystheus, king of Mycenae, who made him perform his Twelve Labors.

(Anakin pushing Palpatine down a shaft...)
I will concede that this part is a bit of a stretch; Anakin exiles himself rather than being forcibly exiled.

(Palpatine's sparks short-circuiting Anakin's suit)
I found it rather odd, even granting the numerous odd features of the Star Wars Universe. If Palpatine had fallen a long way into some reactor core or whatever, then those sparks would likely spread around wherever he was at and not very much would go up that shaft.

(Cremated on Endor...)
So it's more generalized disposing of the body?

I think that Lord Raglan had in mind was cases of tombs of some hero being venerated without the hero's bones being anywhere in sight, however.

According to some of the post-Empire Star Wars novels, Luke Skywalker goes on to lead the rebuilding of the Jedi order; he'd thus fit criteria 13 and 15, and possibly also 14.

I disagree. The three are still good fits, even if Anakin not as much as the other two.

ETA:

In some post-Empire novels, Luke would also fit criterion 12; he falls in love with and marries a fellow Jedi knight and master, Mara Jade. Luke's score is thus:
Movies: 7/11
Novels: 10-11/15

I shall now consider Leia Organa's score; I conclude that her score is identical to Luke's, though she satisfies some of the criteria in somewhat different fashion. She fits criterion 8 by being raised by Viceroy Bail Organa, Prince of Alderaan and his wife Queen Breha Antilles-Organa. And she fits criteria 10 and 11 by joining the rebellion and participating and leading in it, though she takes a path different from Luke's. In some post-Empire novels, she fits criterion 12 by marrying Han Solo, and criteria 13, 15, and perhaps also 14 by helping to build the New Republic.

Lowly Idiot

I would, but I haven't got the foggiest what this thread is about.

Chris Weimer

I don't know if Raglan would agree. But I disagree with Raglan overall anyway, so it's immaterial.

Yes, that's why it's a scale, and not a rule. You can make anyone fit if you keep broadening the criteria.

The idea of the firstborn is very important in Graeco-Roman society - it's no wonder that a special status was placed on it - Marcus Tullius Cicero was by far more important than his brother Quintus. Divine birth is important, or only child is important - mere firstborn is rather uncommon - Hercules, Theseus, Achilles, Oedipus, Aeneas, etc...

One exception is Jason, who, however, wasn't much of a hero since his story came after the epic season. Thus as a non-hero, remember he couldn't get the fleece by himself, he assembled a crew to assist him.

Moreover, I find marking Zeus as a hero is anachronistic - the Greeks had a clear line between heroes and Gods, and very few blurred those lines, namely Hercules (who was probably worshipped as a God before becoming hero-ized), but I can't think of very many others.

Yes, which is why it should be weighed thus.

George W. Bush's father was head of the CIA and then later made president. You see what we can do here?

Are you having troubles understanding that not all heroes fit Raglan's scale?

No, it's proper disposing of the body. That was a very important custom for both Greeks and Romans, and if the body wasn't disposed of properly (for them being burial, for Lucas' universe I'm guessing cremation is desirable) then it was a great transgression. Thus Antigone's crime and her reason for committing it.

Those are about as canon as is the much later apocryphal gospels are to Jesus, or parts of Vergil was to Homer. Separation of sources if absolutely necessary, which is what I repeatedly pointed out when people took all four gospels for Jesus' life (plus extra-canonical events) and didn't realize that Mark knew of no miraculous conception, etc...

According to canon, there were no Jedis left. Remember, Anakin was the chosen one who was to bring balance to the force. He killed all Jedis (except Yoda, who perished anyway) and disposed of the last remaining Sith, Emperor Palpatine.

Let me analyze C. Iulius Caesar -

(1) The hero's mother is a royal virgin

1, he was younger than the two Iuliae, but he his mother comes from a distinguished line.

(2) his father is a king, and

1, (remember, we don't have to be king), the Iulii Caesares were of noble blood and even having produced some consules.

(3) the father is related to the mother.

0.

(4) The hero's conception is unusual or miraculous; hence

1. Plinius Maior said that he had to be born via a cesarean section.

(5) he is reputed to be a son of a god.
1, he traced his lineage all the way to Venus.

(6) Evil forces attempt to kill the infant or boy hero, but
1, Sulla tried to have Caesar killed.

(7) he is spirited away to safety and
1.

(8) reared by foster parents in a foreign land. Besides this,
0.

(9) we learn no details of his childhood until
0, as we know some things, like his tutor was a Gaul.

(10) he journeys to his future kingdom, where
1, he returns to Rome.

(11) he triumphs over the reigning king and
1, he fights the Senatorial factions led by Pompey and becomes dictator forever.

(12) marries a princess, often his predecessor's daughter, and
2, he married Pompeia, so therefore satisfies both answers.

(13) becomes king himself.
1, Obviously.

(14) For a while he reigns uneventfully,
1, After he conquered Pompeians, he went on to lead some peace, promulgating new laws and trying to make the empire better. Augustus does this even better with the Pax Romana after he defeats Antony's forces.

(15) promulgating laws. But
1, as I mentioned afore.

(16) he later loses favor with his subjects or with the gods and
1, they thought he was being too "kingly".

(17) is driven from the throne and the city and
0.

(18) meets with a mysterious death,
1, assassinated.

(19) often atop a hill.
He was at the top of Senate house, but if you go with lpetrich's half point to

(20) If he has children, they do not succeed him.
0, since Augustus suceeds him.

(21) His body is not buried, yet
He was cremated, so 0.

(22) he has one or more holy sepulchers.
Unsure, so 0.

Prophecy fulfillment?
Yes, Sulla said that in Caesar he saw many Marius.

16/25, 64%.

Maybe I'll do Augustus too, though I think that was already done here.

lpetrich

True, but I haven't given everybody a 22.

Ask Lord Raglan about that He evaluated some deities, and it must be said that the Greek ones were anthropomorphic enough to make one want to see how well they fit.

He'd thus qualify as a "king".

I have no trouble with that; look at my scoring of Charles Darwin or Napoleon or Hitler or JFK.

(Star Wars "Expanded Universe" novels...)
Lord Raglan's approach has been to use the most mythical variant; there are some less-mythical variants in his source examples like:

King Amulius seduced Rhea Silvia
Zeus appeared in human form and bribed Danae's guards with some gold

Also, I'm well aware of the status of those novels; you can consider them deuterocanon.

Mara Jade starts out as an "Emperor's Hand" assassin, but changes sides when the Emperor is defeated, becoming a Jedi.

As usual, Julius Caesar is a fairly comprehensive source, though I check it against others.

She's Aurelia Cotta; I agree: 1

He's Gaius Julius Caesar the Elder, who had come from an aristocratic family, and who had been proconsul of Asia. As to "king" here, I think that it's shorthand for "great leader". So I agree: 1

Correct: 0

No, Pliny the Elder claimed that it was an ancestor who had been born that way; "Caesar" was a family name. And this is birth, not conception -- and not a particularly miraculous sort of birth at that: 0

I'll give him that one: 1

When Julius was 18 or 20 years old. I think that that's stretching it: 0

He went into hiding for a while. This is unlike what happens to many mythic heroes; they live out in the open in some foreign land: 0

At least we agree on that: 0

I agree: 0

He is in his "kingdom" all his life: 0

I agree: 1

A bit of a stretch. I wonder if that is worth splitting, in the way that I think that "royal virgin" is worth splitting: 1

I agree: 1

I agree: 1

I agree. Perhaps his most far-reaching law was his calendar reform, which we still use, though with some modifications: 1

I agree: 1

I agree; he kept his position until the last minute: 0

I'm not sure I'd consider it that unusual or mysterious, especially considering that Rome had suffered from civil war for some decades -- civil war that Julius Caesar himself had participated in: 0

On top of the Senate house? The version I've found is in "a room adjoining the east portico", which is not quite a prominent place: 0

I agree: 0

I disagree: 1

I agree: 0

Where did Sulla say that? He could well have been impressed by this up-and-coming young man, so it's unlike the more typical sort of prophecy, made when the hero had been a baby or even before that. Sometimes long before that.

My score: 10/22 with no prophecy fulfillment.

Yes I did, in that "Lord Raglan problems" thread, and he comes out 11/22 with a prophecy fulfillment.

lpetrich

I've been wanting to calculate King Arthur's Lord Raglan score, but despite finding a lot of pages on Arthurian lore, I can't find a good summary biography of him online. A few paragraphs to a few pages will do.