Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lemur · 03-26-2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

And I would argue that the unison is to reinforce the believability of the unbelievable

That's only because you already assume that what they are worshipping is unbelievable. (I do too.) But from another point of view it is no more harmless than singing the Star Spangled Banner before a baseball game.

regis · 03-27-2005, 11:48 PM

Lemur Quote: [A religious ritual] is no more harmless than singing the Star Spangled Banner before a baseball game.

I will assume you meant 'no more harmful' or 'as harmless as'. Otherwise, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Or no more harmful than any other OCD spazz-out, except it may lead to the permanent (or nearly-so) condition of god-acceptance, where evolution hasn't been proven (whatever the hell that could possibly mean) but genesis has.

Simply put, I think that religion is a form of madness and certainly not benign.

:devil1:

RussianM3_dude · 03-28-2005, 06:05 AM

In OCD the repetition of certain motions comforts you. Just look at Islam and all this swaying back and forth. No wonder a lot of people enjoy doing that.
In my view, religion is a good cover for all sorts of neurosis, obsessions and delusions.

richard2 · 03-28-2005, 03:23 PM

As a former Catholic with obsessive-compulsive disorder, I can tell you that there is a thing called "religious OCD" or "scrupulosity". Just punch that phrase or word into Google for more information.

WCH · 03-28-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

Where did the concept of the Trinity come from?

Later theologians who wanted Jesus to be God, and didn't know what to make of the fact that he also prayed to God. Their solution was a duality of being... and then they threw the Holy Spirit into it because Jesus mentions "the one who will come after."

BigJim · 03-28-2005, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemur

I would argue that the higher precision you see in many religious rituals, as opposed to waking-up rituals, is because they are designed to be practiced in a group. When doing things in a group everything has to be laid out in detail to the last word or you don't get the harmony which is part of the experience. For example if everyone just prayed out loud whatever they felt like it would be a jarring cacophony, but when you have everyone repeating Our Father in unison then the experience becomes more, I don't know, uplifting.

This doesn't hold true for some of the Charasmatic practices such as speaking in tongues, or just shouting out "Praise Jesus" or "Amen" when one is moved by the spirit.

Technically, I guess these aren't rituals... :huh:

RussianM3_dude · 03-29-2005, 04:22 AM

I mean we are all OCD to a certain extent. And religious retuals tend to reinforce that in people.

Barefoot Bree · 03-29-2005, 05:08 AM

There may be elements of ritual that begin to stray into the realm of OCD for some people, but for most, I think it's more akin to mass hypnosis.

Insert plug for my latest favorite article: Religion, Hypnosis, and Music: an Evolutionary Perspective on Athiests.org.

Quote:

If my readers think the term "hypnosis" can be applied to religion only in the metaphorical sense, they should hasten to the nearest tabernacular, faith-healing, full-gospel-assembly, fire-baptized, holy-rolling revival meeting. They will see hypnosis in action, replete with people falling on the ground, jerking and twitching and babbling. They will be able to observe how the contagion spreads from the leaders to the followers. They will observe the anesthetic power of hypnosis, as real cripples - not just the shills - throw down their crutches and prance around to the tune of crunching bone-joints.

Make no mistake about it. The hypnosis used by preachers is real hypnosis. The priests were the first to control it, and to this day they and their politician brethren are the most skilled practitioners of the art.

How do they do it? there are many different ways of inducing a hypnotic state of consciousness, and generally the fakirs use many methods simultaneously. For neurochemical reasons which are still not entirely clear, fasting is a useful means of preconditioning the nervous system to make it more malleable and suggestible. Although lowering of blood sugar probably has much to do with it, it is likely that hormone-like substances known as endogenous opioids are also involved. As the name implies, these chemicals are internally produced opiate-like substances which resemble morphine in their action.

Although Karl Marx was speaking metaphorically when he wrote that "Religion is the opiate of the masses," his words may prove to be literally true as well. There is considerable evidence that hypnosis and "transcendental" meditation can increase the production of certain of these opioids by the brain. The hallucinations so often accompanying religious experiences may very well be a result of opioid intoxication and verbal suggestions implanted by the "guru" guiding the religious "trip."

Another method of inducing hypnosis is long repeated prayer. When people pray for "a sign," they repeat over and over what it is they want to see or hear. Sooner or later, if their nervous systems are even slightly normal, they should be able to generate vivid experiences fulfilling their wishes. Only wealthy men who say god speaks to them are frauds. Poor people who say this are simply self-deluded.

This kind of hypnosis is a very, very powerful self-reinforcing lure. It FEELS DAMN GOOD - it MUST be true. What kind of alternative could we possibly provide against that?

Hopeful Monsters · 03-29-2005, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder

“…Obsessional thoughts are ideas, images or impulses that enter the individual's mind again and again in a stereotyped form… “

The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders

I agree with the OP and other Posts that follow it.

It could be that OCD in milder forms might be present to an extent in everyone, and aspects of religion satisfies its tendencies and compulsions to the repetition of routines.

It is interesting that many religions share in common, features such as:—

incantations
mantras
prayers
routines
ruminations
rituals
ceremonies (which follow strict rules, conventions, formalised behaviours and rules about what is done and when and in what order)

— all of these often involving repeated word patterns, repeated behaviours and repeated physical movements.

And religion often entails other compulsions and self-mortifications of the mind or body—

fasting
self-flagellation
speaking in tongues
the body movement of evangelical worship/fervor
the body movements and prayers of daily Muslim worship and of the Hajj (eg. the rocking back and forth already mentioned above).

OCD involves behaviour loops and thought loops and so does religion.

Religion satisfies our tendency to fantasy, fixation, fetish and mania—

fantasy — an unrestrained product of the creative imagination (individual or group) in which the fantasist(s) has control of his imagined object or situation; a situation or idea not established in reality that is imagined by an individual or group, and which expresses certain desires, obsessions, yearnings, unmet needs, of its imaginers

fixation ― rigid mental attachment/obsession/preoccupation

fetish ― an object to which pathological attachment is formed; something regarded with irrational irreverence

Hopeful Monsters · 03-29-2005, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

There may be elements of ritual that begin to stray into the realm of OCD for some people, but for most, I think it's more akin to mass hypnosis.

Insert plug for my latest favorite article: Religion, Hypnosis, and Music: an Evolutionary Perspective on Athiests.org.

This kind of hypnosis is a very, very powerful self-reinforcing lure. It FEELS DAMN GOOD - it MUST be true. What kind of alternative could we possibly provide against that?

Derren Brown, who is an expert in the power of suggestion, has commented that religious ceremonies/ritual is either based on high states of mental arousal (eg. evangelicals) or solemn monotony - both of which are a beginning ground for suggestibility in hypnosis techniques.

So institutional forces use the solemn monotony of church services or the high arousal approach, to aid the suggestibility they crave in order to spread the mind-virus that is religious belief.

Derren Brown also cites Las Vegas as utilising similar techniques - no clocks in the gambling areas, stark hotel rooms so you get bored and wander down and gamble, no sense of day or night in the gambling rooms etc. Lulling people into a kind of hypnotic state.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-27-2005, 11:48 PM	#12
regis Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: calgary, ab Posts: 690	Lemur Quote: [A religious ritual] is no more harmless than singing the Star Spangled Banner before a baseball game. I will assume you meant 'no more harmful' or 'as harmless as'. Otherwise, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Or no more harmful than any other OCD spazz-out, except it may lead to the permanent (or nearly-so) condition of god-acceptance, where evolution hasn't been proven (whatever the hell that could possibly mean) but genesis has. Simply put, I think that religion is a form of madness and certainly not benign. :devil1:

03-28-2005, 06:05 AM	#13
RussianM3_dude Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Switzerland. Posts: 1,683	In OCD the repetition of certain motions comforts you. Just look at Islam and all this swaying back and forth. No wonder a lot of people enjoy doing that. In my view, religion is a good cover for all sorts of neurosis, obsessions and delusions.

03-28-2005, 03:23 PM	#14
richard2 Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Nox Planet Posts: 438	As a former Catholic with obsessive-compulsive disorder, I can tell you that there is a thing called "religious OCD" or "scrupulosity". Just punch that phrase or word into Google for more information.

03-29-2005, 04:22 AM	#17
RussianM3_dude Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Switzerland. Posts: 1,683	I mean we are all OCD to a certain extent. And religious retuals tend to reinforce that in people.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.