Sven

[emphasis mine]
Sorry, could you please point me to the verses in which the writers of the OT did this?

You know what it's strange? AFAIK there's no mention at all off salvation and an afterlife in the OT, rather the opposite - the dead are dead. One important essage which isn't in agreement, I'd say.

Doug Shaver

In the first place, I am not questioning anybody's entitlements. In the second place, I don't think for a minute that anybody ever acquired a belief by a mere act of will.

Some of us, whether we want to or not, will change our minds about something if we are confronted with compelling evidence that our present belief is untrue, not because we choose to but because we cannot do otherwise.

When I ask why anybody should believe X, what I am really asking is whether those who do believe X can produce such evidence. However, I can rephrase it to accommodate your apparent supposition that all beliefs are volitional.

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that I could, by a mere act of will, acquire the belief that of all the people throughout history who have written books on subjects of God and salvation, those men who wrote the Bible, and only those men, made no mistakes. What reasons can you give me for deciding to acquire that belief?

Helpmabob

Hi Sven - My point was a bit ambiguous. The Jews tried to follow the law as presented to Moses, but repeatedly over many years found that they could not do so perfectly. It was this that highlighted the need for a Messiah. This is what the three wise men went looking for that night. Sorry I can’t find verses at the moment.I’m not so sure. If the Jews could follow the law perfectly, then they would live. But could they do so? Not all of the books of the Bible say the same thing – that would be pointless. Perhaps there is commonality of purpose. I like Ecclesiastes, which some might say is contrary to the rest of Scripture, but it has a purpose, such as offering encouragement to the weary and doubtful.

Hi Doug– I will reply ASAP.

Doug Shaver

Even then, all you're getting is the thinking of the person who wrote it. The book itself is just a medium of transmission. To ask what any book says is like asking what the air says when someone is talking to you.

Sven

You know how I call this? Backward interpreting into the text what isn't there.

Oh, you mean the wise men who were as much important that three gospel writers somehow managed to forget them, especially Luke, who also wrote about the birth? The wise men who are not mentioned anywhere else?

Wise men as in so many other mythical stories flying around at this time?

You may also note that Matthew 2 only speaks about "magi" - it's not even mentioned there that they were three!

I think you mean "live on after death". And I suspect you can not find these verses because they exist only in your interpretation, not in the bible itself.

Or an inidcation of different authors with different intentions at different times - which were bought "violently" together by canonization.

Which is all nice and well but beside the point.

Helpmabob

Hi Doug - I think one area where you and me probably differ is in what constitutes ‘compelling evidence’. I allow for spiritual input and am prepared to take certain things on the basis of faith.It is refreshing to find someone here asking for reasons rather than ‘evidence’. I do not know you, so it is difficult for me to give a particular answer to What reasons can you give me for deciding to acquire that belief? So generally -

I have lived with the Bible for some years, and I have put some of it into practice. Not all of it, though - I have not sold all I have and given the money to the poor - I am too scared for one thing. But I have found that to the extent where I have felt able to trust the words within, I have not been let down. It all fits in and makes sense if one can but believe in God. Yes, there are a few small bits that I don’t understand, and some bits may be mistakes. Would more people turn to God if the Bible could be completely understood, and there were absolutely no mistakes? I doubt it. I wouldn’t change it for the world.My belief is that what makes the Bible so special is the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit at every critical stage (including the reading of it by Christians in 2006).

Hi Sven – Helpmabob wrote: It was this that highlighted the need for a Messiah.If you can give a single example of a Jew who obeyed the whole law, you are a better man than me. They wanted salvation; they knew following the law was the way; they couldn't follow the law - darn.

Sven

And why would this be relevant?

You still have not presented a shred of evidence for this.

You still have not presented a shred of evidence for this.
This is also contradicted by the fact that Yehowah (according to the bible) promised earthly awards for obyeing the law (such as giving them Canaan) and also punished the Jews with earthly forfeits, such as the exile in Babylon. Things like this are (AFAIK) the only results of obeying or disobeying the laws mentioned in the OT.

And were promptly punished, yes. No afterlife at all mentioned there.

Doug Shaver

Of course. It could be that no two people are exactly alike in that regard.

To avoid derailing this thread, I'll resist the temptation to ask how you know when you're getting spiritual input.

But I will ask what you mean by that. How does faith work as a reason for believing something? How does it differ from any other reason you might have for believing anything?

In general, by reasons I mean evidence. And by evidence for any proposition, I mean a fact or set of facts, not themselves disputed, that are logically inconsistent with a denial of the proposition.

Why do you doubt that?

Helpmabob

Hi Sven - Because if one man had shown by example that it was possible to follow the law, then all the other Jews could have copied him. Even King David went astray at times. Abraham, on the other hand, was saved ‘by faith’ which was credited to him as righteousness. In the end, Jesus was the only Jew who perfectly followed all of God’s laws – this is one of the many things that marked Him out as different - this is the new covenant.Ask any Jew today what they most want.That is why we have the New Testament. It is why not all of the books of the Bible say exactly the same thing in different words. It’s far richer than that.

Hi Doug - There are different things in which one cane ‘believe’ I’m sure you will agree. I guess I have a variety of reasons for believing in certain things. I was including faith here as something that I have been given which does not require a full complement of explicit reason for believing, as it involves belief in that which cannot be seen. Yet there are excellent reasons for maintaining this faith.It is purely a hypothetical question, but as the people of Biblical times were not convinced even though they saw miracles performed, so people of today would not be convinced by a lexicographically correct Bible.

Boro Nut

The people of biblical times, being primitive, held primitive beliefs, including the possibility of miracles. They may well have heard and believed stories of miracles. That is not seeing one performed. That's not even as good as witnessing a magicians trick in my book. That's where faith gets you. Believing in things beyond reason on the basis of absolutley no evidence. No thanks.

Imagine a timeshare salesman selling timeshare with only the fact he's already sold millions to back it up. No photos. No plans. Nobodies ever been there or sent a postcard. Imagine someone who just signed up coming to your door and trying to convince you to sign up too. And it's you who spends most of your time on your yacht on the Costa Brava every summer. Pathetic.

Boro Nut