Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Joan of Bark · 06-18-2007, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

All the examples you are giving certainly present logistical difficulties for someone who insists on always interpreting the Bible in the most literal sense possible without any consideration for what can be inferred from the words. Though, if you don't want the Bible to make sense, that is certainly way to do it.

And if you want the Bible to make sense, the way to go about it is to make an unwarranted interpretation. Theists are two-faced in this regard: they are happy to take a passage literally when it suits them, but then switch to an interpretation when the passage is disagreeable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

When God says that he is greater than all the other gods, not the least of the reasons for this is that those other gods are, per Baruch, just gold and silver, the work of men's hands. False. Imaginary.

To say "I am greater than gods that don't exist", should provoke a response of: "well, duuuh! Who isn't?"

Joan of Bark · 06-18-2007, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin

There have been (and are) many gods.
YHWH claims to be above them. a God.
The OT is full of examples where God proves He is God over the other gods

No, the claim is that those gods are false gods - no where does it say that those gods actually existed.

Wrong Chris. Frequently it is claimed that other gods exist in the Torah. Read all the posts in this thread again. Monotheism was a later development in the Hebrew religion.

Jayrok · 06-18-2007, 10:18 AM

If Monotheism was a later development in the Hebrew religion... perhaps during the exile(?)... what does that say about the Bible being the inspired word of God?

Do Christians acknowledge that Judaism became Monotheistic later on? If so, how do they explain that?

Chris Weimer · 06-18-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Wrong Chris. Frequently it is claimed that other gods exist in the Torah. Read all the posts in this thread again. Monotheism was a later development in the Hebrew religion.

I read the posts in this thread. Yes, I am aware that monotheism is a later development. I don't find any of the posts convincing that the Hebrews who wrote the Torah were either polytheistic, as it is ignorantly claimed here, or more accurately, henotheistic. Please, if you'd like to make a coherent argument supporting your exegesis on the passages, please be my guest, but as it stands, all I see are verses with no explanation and the mere assumption that the posters must be right. Sounds suspiciously like apologetics to me.

Chris Weimer · 06-18-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

And if you want the Bible to make sense, the way to go about it is to make an unwarranted interpretation. Theists are two-faced in this regard: they are happy to take a passage literally when it suits them, but then switch to an interpretation when the passage is disagreeable.

Setting theists aside, why not actually look at what the ancients thought, instead of some strawman view.

Quote:

To say "I am greater than gods that don't exist", should provoke a response of: "well, duuuh! Who isn't?"

Right, but it was hard for the Israelites to understand that those other gods were false gods, and that they didn't exist. They kept lapsing.

Chris Weimer · 06-18-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

If Monotheism was a later development in the Hebrew religion... perhaps during the exile(?)... what does that say about the Bible being the inspired word of God?

Why does every discussion around here turn into what some Christians believe, instead of actually taking the discussion for the merits they have?

jeffevnz · 06-18-2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Wrong Chris. Frequently it is claimed that other gods exist in the Torah. Read all the posts in this thread again. Monotheism was a later development in the Hebrew religion.

I read the posts in this thread. Yes, I am aware that monotheism is a later development. I don't find any of the posts convincing that the Hebrews who wrote the Torah were either polytheistic, as it is ignorantly claimed here, or more accurately, henotheistic...

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Hebrews who wrote the Torah (or at least the redactors) were henotheistic. The claim is that vestiges of henotheism survive in the text, even though it was edited to appear monotheistic. Since you acknowledge that monotheism was a late development, and you know that the Torah was redacted from earlier sources (some much earlier), I imagine you find the claim at least plausible.

Clivedurdle · 06-18-2007, 01:00 PM

Why is there an argument about this? In Hinduism, everything is called a god, in Judaism and Xianity and Islam there are hierarchies - angels, seraphim, cherubim, devils, demons (saints?) etc etc. When Jesus cast out evil spirits isn't he casting out low level gods? When the Bible talks about being filled with the Holy Spirit to keep out other spirits, it is assuming their existence.

Does this alleged evolution to monotheism actually exist or is it the creation of a dictator god (or two?). Is the problem a modern assumption of one to three gods and a misunderstanding that the number of angels on a pinhead is a legitimate discussion?

http://www.2think.org/hii/mlquotes.shtml

Quote:

"At Poltersberg, there is a lake similarly cursed. If you throw a stone into it, a dreadful storm immediately arises, and the whole neighboring district quakes to its centre. 'Tis the devils kept prisoner there."

"At Sussen, the Devil carried off, last Good Friday, three grooms who had devoted themselves to him."

Chris Weimer · 06-18-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffevnz

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Hebrews who wrote the Torah (or at least the redactors) were henotheistic. The claim is that vestiges of henotheism survive in the text, even though it was edited to appear monotheistic.

If you claim that vestiges of henotheism survive in the Torah, how are you not arguing that those who wrote the Torah (not the redactors) were henotheistic?

Quote:

Since you acknowledge that monotheism was a late development, and you know that the Torah was redacted from earlier sources (some much earlier), I imagine you find the claim at least plausible.

The confusion I think lies in how it has been worded. The Torah wasn't a monolithic entity - Genesis-Numbers were written before Deuteronomy. The texts themselves also need to be separated into J, E, and P before the exegesis in this case (since we're talking about what came before those books) can be brought out.

Finally, for hundreds of years before the DSS the Israelites/Judaeans were monotheistic - how come much of these verses didn't get changed? How can you tell when gods are meant to be accounted as false gods who didn't exist and lesser gods subordinate to YHWH? And where does it explicitly say that these gods exist? None of the verses mention explicitly state such, so one is left to draw their own conclusions. There's no argument here.

Clivedurdle · 06-18-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Finally, for hundreds of years before the DSS the Israelites/Judaeans were monotheistic

Grade one assertion!

Even Muslims and the Pope are not monotheistic - they believe in Djinn and exorcism! I see peoples everywhere who believed in whole pantheons of gods, the differences are related to how important a particular god is.

I wonder if monotheism is actually an enlightenment invention by Deists possibly started by Newton.

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06-18-2007, 10:18 AM	#23
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	If Monotheism was a later development in the Hebrew religion... perhaps during the exile(?)... what does that say about the Bible being the inspired word of God? Do Christians acknowledge that Judaism became Monotheistic later on? If so, how do they explain that?

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