brighid

But you are immune to that disease are you not? So how can it be an act of aggression? Do all Christians proselytize? They aren't even allowed to do that at iidb so it seems counterintuitive to meet their ideas with contempt in a protected environment where no harm can be done.

MOST Christians keep to themselves. It is the few that ruin it for the vast majority of law-abiding, minding their own business, theists who could care less what their neighbor does or does not worship. MOST are good people, hardly different then you and I, and this is why I object to the blanket generalizations some have made in this thread. If you meet an individual theist who is rapid then meet him as he is.

IF Christianity is an infection and/or a manipulation then I think it would be more prudent to deal with it as such, and not condemn the individual who is "infected." Although I think saying as much is rather disrespectful and won't help promote metaphysical naturalism OR non-theism.

If the "cure" for the negative aspects of theism is knowledge it is unlikely that the majority of theists (who are kind, reasonable people and the crowd that can benefit from knowledge) our task won't be accomplished by holding them down, forcing open their mouths, and jamming the "medicine" in for "their own good."

Truth needs no malicious or contemptuous defense. Truth stands on it's own merits and cannot be crumbled by myth and misinformation. However, in all matters of conversion, it must be done of one's own free-will. The rabid, angry, anti-theism approach (even if anger and contempt are warranted in some cases) serves no purpose other then putting the "cure" in a position of contempt and malice. It will be seen as a poison, and not the elixir of truth.

If your goal is to alienate those who may benefit from the truth, please continue to meet Christians collectively as the "enemy" and treat them with contempt, ridicule and hostility. If your goal is otherwise, perhaps it is time you do some self-reflection, and realize the danger in your contempt and possibly change your strategy to one that creates positive outcomes.

Brighid

Starboy

Haran, I am not asking you to give up your religion nor am I advocating that your religion be abolished as long as Christians can respect the constitution and use common sense in the multi-cultural world we find ourselves in. This may be impossible for Christians to do when taking into account the �truth� mongering aspect of their religion, but Christians have to learn to accept, and consider just as valid, views of life and existence that conflict with their own. Christians may not have caused the current mess that the US is in but they are making things far worse then they have to be. The Christian who wishes to be well educated would do well to read the Treaty of Tripoli. If Christians would just learn how to live and let live the world would be a whole lot better off for it and we as Americans would not have as big a bull�s eye painted on our backs.

Starboy

Titanpoint

I'm not sure that some people want to be helped. They want certainty and a measure of control of their lives. Xtianity (and most religions) provide this - even if its as substantial as fog. They also provide plenty of opportunities for people to fail and then to provide the solution: more religion, more belief, more credulity, willing suspension of disbelief.

Face it, most people prefer the simplistic answers of a religion to the detailed study of science, even if that religious belief can be shown to be false (or at least unlikely to be true). It's not that the�'re unintelligent. It's just common human weaknesses such as: the need to be loved and accepted by a group, fear of loneliness or rejection, fear of failure, fear of the future: of death heaven and hell.

Skepticism is hard. Its an unnatural act to disbelieve that which is earnestly told to you. Skepticism of religion is very tough. The loss of "fellowship", the approval or disapproval by ther group dynamic, these are powerful forces that work against freethought because they run counter to our biological nature to need to belong. Such a group dynamic exists everywhere including this board. Humans are clannish and group oriented because of our evolutionary heritage, hermits are very much the exception and are viewed as peculiar. Women are exceptionally social creatures compared to men, but all humans (with very few exceptions) need to belong, and religion uses this fact to ensnare people in a false view of the world and themselves.

For those who have never fallen under the spell of a religion - good for you. For the rest of us, religion can dominate our lives even when we have left behind personal religious belief. We need to belong.

Starboy

Brighid, where you been this last couple of years, under a rock? In case you haven�t noticed we have in the US as president a man who does not keep it to him self. In fact you could say that the open display of his religious belief has made matters far worse then they had to be. Perhaps these live-and-let-live Christians you speak of are in the majority but they are suspiciously silent about our borderline if not out and out fundy president. This country is so religiously biased it stinks to high heaven. When they cover the ten commandments story in Alabama, how many journalist cut to the live-and-let-live Christians for their take on the story? Zero, nada, buttkiss! Nobody in this country wants to take on the fundies because they exist in great numbers, are unopposed and are closer to a majority than anyone wants to admit. So much for the live-and-let-live Christians.

Starboy

brighid

You seem to have missed my point entirely. As to where I have been, in the same place you are. I have no love of the Bush administration, faith-based initiatives, or any of the other things going on with regard to faith being forced onto the government and it's people.

However, I chose to take action through community, political and social activism. I work side-by-side with Christians, atheists, Muslims, etc. who share the same goals as I, an atheist, do. I do not see the world as the hopelessly hostile place you do, and I would guess that is because I don't look for the hopeless hostile actions to reinforce my own belief about others.

I also live in a conservative, Republican, upper-middle class area where many Churches of varying denominations, are a stones throw in every direction. I do not experience the things you do, even though I see (in other parts of the country) the thing you do.

You are seeing what the propagandists want you to see. They desire to insight your anger to use it against you, to show more moderate and liberal Christians that "we" are the "enemy." Many media outlets are controlled by conservative business men wishing to push their agenda, and I am afraid you have fallen right into their trap. You have become the poster boy for the "angry atheist." Congratulations.

I treat people as individuals. I do not prejudge them because they belong to a certain denomination of theism. If they prove to be proselytizers, or rabid fundamentalists then I shall treat them accordingly. However, I will not reinforce their stereotypes and the memory of my actions will hopefully nag at their subconscious and possibly urge their conscious mind to rethink their inannity.

There is a difference between you and I, and it is great. I am welcomed into theistic circles and I am listened to because I extend the respect I expect to be given. I have been able to plant the seeds of doubt, or at the very least provide accurate information to those who have been misinformed, or simply lack the experience of ever meeting an atheist. You, with your hostility and anger, will more often then not, be tuned out and ignored, even if your message is correct and even if you tell the truth.

Instead of creating more barriers for the spread of knowledge and building respect for metaphysical naturalism, why don't you try building bridges? Your hostility will eventually consume you after it has slowly poisoned your being. It will, if it has not already, grow into hate. Hatred is a powerful and evil human emotion, and you and everyone else should guard against it's consuming fire.

I understand your anger, hostility and contempt. I even embrace those feelings when they arise in my own being, but I let them go because I do not want to be polluted, as my enemies are polluted with the toxic venom of prejudice, hatred, and rage that are bred out anger, hostility and contempt.

Brighid

Starboy

Perhaps I am the poster boy for the "angry atheist" but you have to understand my background. My family did live through times where extremist went unopposed. Where "the right thing to do" was to work quietly. They were killed, imprisoned, tortured and those that were left alive were force to flee or died in Siberia. Sometimes you have to oppose intolerance with intolerance. There is nothing else for it.

Starboy

brighid

Your background does not excuse your actions. The child who is abused by a family member is not excused when he grows up and becomes an abuser.

My family members (specifically my grandfather and his village) were taken into concentration camps, worked forced labor and killed by the Nazis (although my grandfather escaped). My Suoix and Cherokee ancestors were systematically exterminated and "Christianized". My pagan ancestors were also exterminated, and I am the mother of a biracial child and know all too well the sting of prejudice.

Intolerance breeds intolerance, violence begets violence ... and the same goes for respect, non-violence, and tolerance. I am not saying that anyone should tolerate injustice or criminal behavior, and the rise of theocracy in this country must be protected against. However, directing you anger at people who have done nothing to harm you, but merely call themselves Christian, is to be NO better then those you claim to fight against. Hypocrisy is the worst of all vices.

You control your destiny, and only you chose how you react to and interact with the world at large. Only you are responsible for the consequences of your actions. Your attitude and your actions aren't helping the cause, and they certainly aren't diffusing those who are filled with anger and hatred. You reinforce their ideas and you become a pawn in self-fulfilling prophecies. You give them your power when you hate them, and they control you. You are the puppet and they are the puppet master.

If you want the Christian Reich and it's fundamentalist brand of rabid theists to succeed, keep doing their work for them by spewing your hatred and malice around like so many radioactive seeds. They will certainly take root, but don't be surprised when the fruits of your labors are toxic and destroy you and everything else they touch.

Brighid

Hugo Holbling

It seems to me that the process or tendency to oppose here is that which bifurcates the world into "us" and "them". Who "we" or "they" is beside the point.

Starboy

brighid, placation usually emboldens the bully. If we were dealing with reasonable people I would agree with you but there is very little that is reasonable about Christianity.

Starboy

brighid

What gives you the impression that placation is part of the respectful process of dealing with moderate and liberal Christians as individuals, and only treating those who express rabid tendencies appropriately?

I know more about bullies then I care to explain. Standing up to them does not mean beating the crap out their brother because he has the same last name. Categorizing and treating all Christians as the enemy is essentially the same thing.

One very effective way to get a bully to back off is to stand strong, with confidence and truth. Then you work with those who might stand with him by demonstrating that you are the "reasonable" force. When you stand united, with those within his own circle, and reject his bullying with the strength of that silent unification, he generally ceases his behavior.

Every example you can provide to justify your contempt, malice, and hatred can and will be countered with respectful, reasonable ways to difuse the situation and actually demonstrate your moral and intellectual superiority.

You would get more accomplished if you joined forces with other people who share common goals, but who aren't identical in all beliefs, to chase the bullies away. Sometimes, but on rare occasion, force must be met with force. However it should not be your modus operandi. Have you succeeded in dismantling the Christian Reich, protecting non-theism or promoting metaphysical naturalism with your tactics? Are you listened to by those who can be reached? If not, you are wasting your valuable time and energy, and in fact you are aiding and abetting the "enemy" by dismantling the carefully built bridges so many of us has worked hard to construct, and yet again you are their pawn.

I would think, given your dislike of force theism, that you would not want to help them.

Brighid