secular buddhist

Maybe you can help me out here, Magus. I'm reading Psalm 22 and no where does it say "And they nailed me to a cross." Which translation should I be using?

rlogan

Exodus 12:46 Psalm 22:17 and 34:20. No broken bones.

That is why the crucifixion has no broken bones.
If the HB prophesies said he would have broken bones, then the romans would have broken his bones

Sensei Meela

Don't want to speak for him, but on occasion Dave has said he attends some type of religious school.

And I rather liked the "cats" analogy on the last page!

diana

I tackled that one a couple of years ago: Psalm 22 is not about Jesus' Death, if you're interested. There's a follow-on Rebuttal and Response that deals with the usual objections that I didn't cover adequately in the opening piece.

d

Magdlyn

Thank you Sensei.

What cats analogy? I see refs to dogs and lions.

Sensei Meela

Magdlyn:

Soory; this is the analogy I meant!

SLD

I really enjoyed Rabbi Singer's response to this question. The issue boils down to whether the Hebrew word is Karu (dug or maybe pierced) or Ka'ari (like a lion). I did some further digging and even posted the question on Theologywebsite so that I would be sure to get some "expert" response by evangelicals. One thing that interested me was the claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls (which are clearly not Christian) use Karu, and thus are like the Christian interpretation. Some claim that the Septuagint translates Karu as well, but others claim that the Psalms were never part of the original Septuagint until they were added by Origen in the 4th century AD.

I'd be curious to know from the experts here whether the claim about the Dead Sea Scrolls is correct. That should pretty much settle the proper translation.

Regardless of the proper translation though, I would seriously question how this section "prophecies" Christ's crucifixion. The whole Psalm in no way is making a prophecy of events to come, and indeed has nothing to do with any supposed messiah. If they were written by David, that was long before any prophecies of a messiah were made. Nor were Jesus's hands pierced as has been pointed out; you don't crucify someone like that.

And finally, is not the resurrection the most important event of Jesus's life? If you're going to make a prophecy about him, then make one about that! I've asked many times for a prophecy of Jesus's resurrection from Christians and I've never gotten a real response - outside of maybe Jonah in the whale.

SLD

dado

the problem with resorting to Qm'rn as a definitive source is that it introduces some pretty serious issues with respect to canon integrity/completeness. not really a problem for judaism, but i imagine some x'ians would find that disconcerting.

regardless, the word in the Psalm 22 fragment - 5/6HevPs - is mispelled whether you're looking for 'karu' or 'kaari'. occams razor suggest 'kaari' - it involves simply making a small calligraphic error - or even just a smudge - at the end of the word - whereas 'karu' requires the insertion of an extra multistroke letter - but there really is no definitive answer to question.

diana

As an aside, I've read various speculation that the Jonah and Jesus stories were offsprings of the same basic myth. (At the moment, I'm finishing a somewhat copious volume written in 1889 called Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions that argues the original Little Red Riding Hood--in which she and the gramma were eaten by the wolf but he was killed and cut open by the hunters and they both stepped out healthy and whole--was yet another form of the same sun-god myths that spawned the Jonah and Jesus tales.)

Back to the comments by SLD, though: you ask a very good question, and there can be no good answer for it, because the Jewish messiah wasn't prophesied to die in the first place.

d

JoeWallack

JW:
I don't believe that "pierces" can be found in any extant Hebrew. As explained in another post here it's not in the DSS. What Hebrew manuscripts are you referring to? If I'm correct then "like a lion" has the following weight behind it:

1) No clear alternative in any known Hebrew manuscript.

2) No clear Jewish interpretation that the word meaning "like a lion" meant "pierced".

This evidence, in the same language as the likely original, would be difficult to overcome.

You've used "Septuagint" ambiguously. In ancient times it referred to a supposed specific translation but critical scholarship doubts that it included a translation of the Psalms or that it even existed. Later use of it was expanded to also mean Greek translations of the Jewish Bible but critical scholarship would generally doubt that extant versions were composed by Jewish hands. Likewise, the extant Syriac is doubted as being a Jewish product ("pierced" would even be taken as evidence by some that it must be a Christian product).

Someone here already pointed out that NRSV has "like a lion" and some newer Christian translations are starting to include a footnote that either the Masoretic text has "like a lion" or most Hebrew manuscripts do.


Joseph

INTERPRETER, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said.

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