GakuseiDon

So then, two questions:
1. In platonism, which part of the universe was constant, and which part of the universe was constantly changing?
2. In the supernatural view back then, where were demons supposed to have lived? (Hint: no-one thought that demons lived in a separate spiritual realm!)

Elijah

1. Spiritual constant/material changing.

2. The supernatural view was they were astral entities/magic gremlins that cause havoc on the minds of men. Are you back on in the air stuff? From their POV how are memes spread if not through the air, either visually or audibly?

GakuseiDon

OK. So where was the spiritual world thought to be located? Where was the material world thought to be located?

Where were the "astral" demon entities located, according to the supernatural view? Surely not in the platonic unchanging realm of perfection?

Elijah

Everywhere. It’s the universal constant. Like Plato’s cave. A bad bad summery; Democritus says everything is atoms and void, then Heraclites says everything is Change, then Parmenides/Socrates says only everything we can see is change. This is the big concept that defines the next 700 years or so of philosophical conversation until Rome becomes Christian.

Plato puts forward that we are locked into only seeing what is changing by our sense, like being chained facing a wall of fire light flickering on a cave wall. But behind our sense only conceivable by our intellect are constants in the universe on a walkway casting the shadows on the wall. Unchanging aspects of the universe that hold the ideal from or code to the universe and are the actual source of the shapes on the cave wall but we can’t see them behind us on the walkway because we are locked into the changing side by the limitations of our senses.

Now when they start to speculate on what just would be the nature of this constant unperceivable side of the universe they come up with every idea you could imagine because you couldn’t really argue about what couldn’t be seen, but what doesn’t ever change is that the unseen side is constant. Love is love, from before time till now, just like the form of a chair or Logos… all constant and unchanging.
In LaLa land I guess. The supernatural view isn’t really anything that is taught by any schools of thought at the time that I know of. A supernatural view comes from taking an artistic interpretation literally instead of understanding it in the context of reality.

The supernatural view is considered just superstition to the philosophers of the time.

Toto

I think I'll leave you to the conversation in your mind. You've decided that any indication that early Christians believed in the supernatural can't be taken at face value because it is possible to interpret it as just a meme (a concept invented in the 20th century by Richard Dawkins.)

But the Pope thinks that the devil is real and can be prayed out of a mentally disturbed girl.

Elijah

Witty. Yea, before Richard Dawkins invented the meme concept they didn't exist.

GakuseiDon

I still don't understand what you mean by "supernatural view". Can you give me some actual examples from early writings, please, that illustrate what YOU mean by "supernatural view"?

Elijah

No I can't. That's the whole point of this thread; that the supernatural assumption of early Christians isn't supported with evidence.

If you want a supernatural illustration, turn on your TV, I'm sure you can find some money grubbing preacher talking of an anthropomorphic guy in the sky and a afterlife realm/heaven for those who cough up some change. Or just ask any kid what he imagines god and heaven is like and you should get the idea.

GakuseiDon

What about the pagans? Any examples from pagan literature of the time, that illustrates a supernatural view? Or are you assuming that everyone -- Christian and pagan -- were rationalists back then? That nobody had a supernatural view?

This is a serious question: How do you know that they aren't talking about memes?

Elijah

Don't know, there may be. I'm having this conversation to see what's out there. I'm sure the majority of people may have held supernatural views then like the majority may now but the philosophical schools of thought weren't teaching it. (That I know of) That thinking was, as now, a product of a lack of teachings/education.