Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Horatio Parker · 04-23-2013, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

I was struck by that, too.

But he's making a historical case, not a theological or philosophical one.

To impart a sense of reality to visions would muddy the issue.

I notice too he has no problems with the sub-lunar realm that some here have trouble accepting.

I think it would have helped him a little more to classify "his" two Jesus as spritual/historical instead of celestial/historical

Celestial makes no sense at all, nor is he written in that way. There, he relies on Earls work.

There's more to it than the question of how Jesus is perceived. There's the drama of the crucifixion with these entities, Jesus and demons interacting. That suggests time and place. In that context, "celestial" makes sense.

wordy · 04-23-2013, 12:42 PM

Thanks Toto for making us aware if this video.

To me it is the inner Christ the jesus you receive in your heart
that is the factual Jesus and the HJ is part of the delusion
that the fundy believers need for to make God real.

a kind of rigged conning to set up a trap. You are either with us
or you end up in hell kind of choice. Very common game groups do.

The choice say. If you chose to believe the way we set it up
if you accept the trap we lay out for you to get caught into
then we accept you as a full member of our group.

"Hard-to-fake-sign of commintment kind of test.

Onias · 04-23-2013, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Did you watch the same video?

The argument was that religions generally co-evolved with Helenism creating a new version, and that Xianity is the result of Judaism meeting Greece.

There is a clear pattern.

Yes, I agree! I think Hellenistic Jews and Herodians were eager to create a new form of Judaism that would be more friendly to the Pax Romana and allow a peaceful coexistence between Romans and moderate Jews.

It was for this reason, IMO, a pacifist Jesus was created.

Onias · 04-23-2013, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And yet NO ONE dares to consider a third possibility based on analysis of CONTEXT and CONTENT: that the "Jesus" elements in dispute were interpolated by our friendly neighbor archivist scribes in the empire of emerging Christianity to pre-existing material that had nothing to do with Jesus, (i.e. as found in the case of Titus and Romans) but were simply Judeo-monotheistic friendly writings.

This sounds intriguing! Could you please elaborate further?

outhouse · 04-23-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Wich is really funny in that it really deosnt deal with Hellensitic Judaism at all, which we all know is the foundation of Christianity.

I think it could be a useful tool in understanding some aspects of Hellenism during this time period.

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007-12-23.html

...

That's a review of a very different book by the same author/

Good catch

Thanks

But doesnt this still stand correct?

Wich is really funny in that it really doesnt deal with Hellensitic Judaism at all, which we all know is the foundation of Christianity.

outhouse · 04-23-2013, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I think it would have helped him a little more to classify "his" two Jesus as spritual/historical instead of celestial/historical

Celestial makes no sense at all, nor is he written in that way. There, he relies on Earls work.

There's more to it than the question of how Jesus is perceived. There's the drama of the crucifixion with these entities, Jesus and demons interacting. That suggests time and place. In that context, "celestial" makes sense.

Really?

The crucifixion as written was a very human event lacking Jesus and demons interacting.

Were other deities parralleled against the living Emperors divinity? Because we have a distinct factual track record of Helleninst making mortal men gods.

jdboy · 04-23-2013, 01:55 PM

The only thing i don't get is that satan and the demons kill jesus not knowing who he is.

But in the bible it's jesus tormenting the demons and the demons know who he is.

mountainman · 04-23-2013, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Not only that we know other figures in Christianity are worshipped such as Mary and different Saints, church fathers ect. Yet are they viewed as Henotheistic as a whole, or Monotheistic?

The history of Christian origins is supposed to be a distinct epoch from the appearance and the history of the rise of Christian hagiography, the trade in the bones and the relics of saints and martyrs, and the appearance of the Mary cults, etc, etc. Carrier makes this quite clear. Everyone knows that this later epoch starts with Athanasius's "Life of Anthony" c.360 CE, whereas the history of Christian origins deals with the NT alone.

You need to separate out these threads and focus on the history of the NT and the emergence of the great and worthy nation of Christians, which according to the planet's experts happened before Nicaea.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 04-23-2013, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

..... Hellensitic Judaism at all, which we all know is the foundation of Christianity.

We don't all know that at all.

It is a hypothesis, and it may not be true.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

stephan huller · 04-23-2013, 02:35 PM

Yeah like the controversial hypothesis that what goes up must come down. Just keep working on it Pete. One day you will finally topple the walls of Christianity. Keep working at it.

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04-23-2013, 12:42 PM	#22
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Thanks Toto for making us aware if this video. To me it is the inner Christ the jesus you receive in your heart that is the factual Jesus and the HJ is part of the delusion that the fundy believers need for to make God real. a kind of rigged conning to set up a trap. You are either with us or you end up in hell kind of choice. Very common game groups do. The choice say. If you chose to believe the way we set it up if you accept the trap we lay out for you to get caught into then we accept you as a full member of our group. "Hard-to-fake-sign of commintment kind of test.

04-23-2013, 01:55 PM	#27
jdboy Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NW United States Posts: 155	The only thing i don't get is that satan and the demons kill jesus not knowing who he is. But in the bible it's jesus tormenting the demons and the demons know who he is.

04-23-2013, 02:35 PM	#30
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yeah like the controversial hypothesis that what goes up must come down. Just keep working on it Pete. One day you will finally topple the walls of Christianity. Keep working at it.

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