Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 03-01-2013, 07:42 PM

No domestic cats either.

There were some strong phobias and social taboos back then.

Robert Tulip · 03-01-2013, 09:45 PM

Egypt.

Ba.

Cesc · 03-02-2013, 02:47 PM

The verb in Gen 1:2 for the Spirit "hovering" (רחף) over the waters might as well be translated as "fluttering" used for birds hovering, fluttering with their wings.
Compare the "messianic apocalypse" from the dead sea scrolls (4Q521) referencing Gen 1:2 using the same verb:

Quote:

For the Lord will consider the pious and call the righteous by name, and his Spirit will flutter upon the poor, and he will renew the faithful with his strength. For he will honor the pious upon the throne of an eternal kingdom, freeing prisoners, giving sight to the blind, straightening out the twis[ted.] And for[e]ver shall I cling to [those who] hope, and in his mercy [...] and the fru[it of ...] not be delayed. And the Lord will perform marvellous acts such as have not existed, just as he sa[id, for] he will heal the badly wounded and will make the dead live; he will proclaim good news to the poor and [...] he will lead the [...] and enrich the hungry.

stephan huller · 03-02-2013, 02:49 PM

Right. I can accept 'like a bird' but 'like a dove' seems too heathenish, too specific. I can accept 'like a lion' too but not a specific kind of lion or a specific lion.

Cesc · 03-02-2013, 02:58 PM

A dove I could see as a symbol used by the evangelists, a symbol of the regenerative power of God, in the manner of the goddess, Aphrodite. The life-givng power of God very much in a fertility kind of understanding, like the way he shapes a human in the womb and so on.

stephan huller · 03-02-2013, 03:02 PM

Right 'in the manner of Aphrodite.' I think this crosses the line.

Clivedurdle · 03-02-2013, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Question: "Why is the dove often used as a symbol for the Holy Spirit?"

Answer: All four Gospel accounts refer to the baptism of Jesus by John at the Jordan river (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32). The Luke account says “And the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily shape, like a dove on Him.” Because the Holy Spirit is just that—spirit—He is not visible to us. This occasion, however, was a real visible appearance, and was doubtless seen by the people. The dove is an emblem of purity and harmlessness (Matthew 10:16), and the form of the dove was assumed on this occasion to signify that the Spirit with which Jesus would be endowed would be one of purity and innocence.

Another symbol involving the dove comes from the account of the Flood and Noah’s ark in Genesis 6-8. When the earth had been covered with water for some time, Noah wanted to check to see if there was dry land anywhere, so he sent out a dove which came back with an olive branch in her beak (Genesis 8:11). Since that time, the olive branch has been a symbol of peace. Symbolically, the story of the dove tells us that God declared peace with mankind after the Flood purged the earth of its wickedness. The dove represented His Spirit bringing the good news of reconciliation with God. Of course, this was only in a temporal sense because true spiritual reconciliation with God only comes through Jesus Christ. But it is significant that the Holy Spirit was pictured as a dove at Jesus’ baptism, thereby once again symbolizing peace with God.

The Holy Spirit, when He assumes a visible form, assumes that which will be symbolic of the thing to be represented. At Pentecost, He assumed the form of “tongues of fire” (Acts 2:30) to signify the miraculous powers of language with which the apostles would be endowed and the power of their message. In the same way, His appearance as the dove symbolizes the gentle Savior bringing peace to mankind through His sacrifice.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spi...#ixzz2MQfK15Ul

http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-dove.html

Thought I would post a pentecostal understanding of this.

Now, are there any relationships between doves, fire and tongues?

Cesc · 03-03-2013, 05:39 AM

What line?

The regenerative power of nature represented throughout the ANE by various kinds of goddesses, some of which being represented by the dove, and various fertility symbols was not a "heathen" or "pagan" idea in the minds of the first Christians - or anyone else for that matter. It was a concept that was part of the common human world-view and understanding of the universe, including the OT. So I would argue that for the early Christians the Holy Spirit of God was part of this concept, part of this aspect of God, and thus could be naturally represented by the symbol of the dove.

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03-01-2013, 07:42 PM	#91
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	No domestic cats either. There were some strong phobias and social taboos back then.

03-01-2013, 09:45 PM	#92
Robert Tulip Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 635	Egypt. Ba.

03-02-2013, 02:49 PM	#94
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Right. I can accept 'like a bird' but 'like a dove' seems too heathenish, too specific. I can accept 'like a lion' too but not a specific kind of lion or a specific lion.

03-02-2013, 02:58 PM	#95
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	A dove I could see as a symbol used by the evangelists, a symbol of the regenerative power of God, in the manner of the goddess, Aphrodite. The life-givng power of God very much in a fertility kind of understanding, like the way he shapes a human in the womb and so on.

03-02-2013, 03:02 PM	#96
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Right 'in the manner of Aphrodite.' I think this crosses the line.

03-03-2013, 05:39 AM	#98
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	What line? The regenerative power of nature represented throughout the ANE by various kinds of goddesses, some of which being represented by the dove, and various fertility symbols was not a "heathen" or "pagan" idea in the minds of the first Christians - or anyone else for that matter. It was a concept that was part of the common human world-view and understanding of the universe, including the OT. So I would argue that for the early Christians the Holy Spirit of God was part of this concept, part of this aspect of God, and thus could be naturally represented by the symbol of the dove.

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