Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 03-18-2012, 10:09 AM

But Joseph disappears entirely in the Quran, and is not merely pushed to the side. It is possible that there are also differences in authors between what are called the Meccan chapters and the Medinan chapters of the Quran.
The authors of the Quran must have viewed the Church as corrupting the original message of Jesus/Isa (including the trinity), but that they had to rely on stories in the synoptics because they didn't exist elsewhere, and proceded to try to "discover" the truth in other gnostic or apocryphal writings.
Perhaps they considered the epistles to be unimportant because they offered no historical information about Jesus himself and were replete with obscure Greek ideas, and thus part of the corruption of the Church along with everything else related to deifying Jesus.

sotto voce · 03-18-2012, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But Joseph disappears entirely in the Quran, and is not merely pushed to the side.

That's only to be expected.

Quote:

The authors of the Quran must have viewed the Church as corrupting the original message of Jesus/Isa (including the trinity)

The imperial farce of a church, yes, but they could not adopt the same approach as that of Rome, because they did not have the same geographic associations. They had to corrupt it another way; yet they seem to have borrowed the same humanist ploy of glorifying Mary, so may well have received covert assistance from Rome. Mariolatry was of course directly opposed to justification by faith, seen in all the Bible, but spelled out by Paul for Gentiles. Extreme Christophobia had a major western form, that was followed, and probably used as exemplar, by a major eastern version. Neither had any intellectual validity, so both required coercion in order to be established.

Doug Shaver · 03-19-2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

the Quran mysteriously ignores Joseph entirely, who is not ignored in GLuke.

I see nothing mysterious about it. Even in the gospels, Joseph is practically a cipher. His sole contribution to Christian dogma was his alleged Davidic lineage, and two of the gospels don't even mention that. Muslims would not have cared a fig about it, so they would have had no reason to mention Joseph at all.

Duvduv · 03-19-2012, 07:17 AM

Yes, we see other things from GLuke that are not in the Quran. No Bethlehem, no shepherds, etc. But Joseph was closer to the picture. And in the Quran Mary was hanging around a fig tree. So perhaps the authors of the Quran had other sources other than GLuke that recounted some similar information.
And of course anything in the epistles is either ignored or unknown.

sotto voce · 03-19-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Yes, we see other things from GLuke that are not in the Quran. No Bethlehem, no shepherds, etc. But Joseph was closer to the picture. And in the Quran Mary was hanging around a fig tree. So perhaps the authors of the Quran had other sources other than GLuke that recounted some similar information.

Yes. Their vivid imaginations.

Duvduv · 03-19-2012, 05:05 PM

Take a look at the story called History of Joseph the Carpenter. Strangely enough the narrator is Jesus himself who describes his mother's virgin birth and also refers to Joseph as his father "after the flesh" and "my father."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0805.htm

sotto voce · 03-19-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Take a look at the story called History of Joseph the Carpenter.

Papalism, polytheism.

No nonsense, please.

Duvduv · 03-19-2012, 05:58 PM

My point isn't whether it is nonsense or not. My point was merely to show how someone or some individuals felt the need to show Joseph as the father despite him not being the father. Not unlike the need of the author of Epistula Apostolarum to show a prophecy for the unknown apostle Paul in a Jesus gospel story context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Take a look at the story called History of Joseph the Carpenter.

Papalism, polytheism.

No nonsense, please.

sotto voce · 03-20-2012, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

My point isn't whether it is nonsense or not. My point was merely to show how someone or some individuals felt the need to show Joseph as the father despite him not being the father. Not unlike the need of the author of Epistula Apostolarum to show a prophecy for the unknown apostle Paul in a Jesus gospel story context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Take a look at the story called History of Joseph the Carpenter.

Papalism, polytheism.

No nonsense, please.

The point is that people who espouse nonsense espouse nonsense? Was Jesus was born by supernatural means, or not? If not, Joseph was presumably the father, in the biological as well as the agreed legal sense, and as agreed practicality.

Joseph was not of interest to antichrists because he was said to be 'righteous' and faithful; whereas of Mary there is not a good word written anywhere in the Bible, conveniently, if not significantly. According to the text, Joseph was twice assisted by angelic message, and wished to do honorably by his intended. There is no such troublesome practical goodness on view in Mary; instead, the groundless, humanist, Roman notion of Mary being preferred above all other women (and thus above all others) is borrowed. In practice, there is nothing to choose between Constantinianism and Islam. Wojtyla kissed a Qur'an with more passion than he ever kissed a Bible.

Duvduv · 03-20-2012, 12:08 PM

With so many elements missing in the Quran that are found in GLuke besides the births of Jesus and the Baptist, it is conceivable that the information did not come directly from the canonical GLuke but from some other midrashic type source that used it.

After all, why would the Quran writers leave out important details about Jesus in GLuke that were as significant to the overall story as the virgin birth itself that could enhance his standing as a very special prophet??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It seems that the stories in Sura 3 and Sura 19 about the birth of Jesus and John the Baptist are directly related to the accounts in the Gospel of Luke. This may also include the description of Mary as the "daughter of Aaron" since GLuke states that Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron, and of course Mary is identified as Elizabeth's cousin.

Regarding the miracles of Jesus, these include healing the leper (GMark) and the blind (all four gospels), resurrecting the dead (Mark, Luke, John), and the additional two of speaking at birth and creating clay birds, the latter appearing in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and Toldoth Yeshu. Exodus Rabba 2:12 states that Moses could speak at birth, so the author of the Quran heard that from Jews. Howver the miracles are merely stated as a matter of fact without the historical background.

If the authors of the Quran knew about the four gospels plus others, how was it they did not specifically know about the Pauline epistles?

The doctrine of the trinity is condemned in Suras 4 and 5.

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03-18-2012, 10:09 AM	#201
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	But Joseph disappears entirely in the Quran, and is not merely pushed to the side. It is possible that there are also differences in authors between what are called the Meccan chapters and the Medinan chapters of the Quran. The authors of the Quran must have viewed the Church as corrupting the original message of Jesus/Isa (including the trinity), but that they had to rely on stories in the synoptics because they didn't exist elsewhere, and proceded to try to "discover" the truth in other gnostic or apocryphal writings. Perhaps they considered the epistles to be unimportant because they offered no historical information about Jesus himself and were replete with obscure Greek ideas, and thus part of the corruption of the Church along with everything else related to deifying Jesus.

03-19-2012, 07:17 AM	#204
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Yes, we see other things from GLuke that are not in the Quran. No Bethlehem, no shepherds, etc. But Joseph was closer to the picture. And in the Quran Mary was hanging around a fig tree. So perhaps the authors of the Quran had other sources other than GLuke that recounted some similar information. And of course anything in the epistles is either ignored or unknown.

03-19-2012, 05:05 PM	#206
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Take a look at the story called History of Joseph the Carpenter. Strangely enough the narrator is Jesus himself who describes his mother's virgin birth and also refers to Joseph as his father "after the flesh" and "my father." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0805.htm

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