John Kesler

You may want to read chapter seven, page 107 ff of James Kugel's book How To Read The Bible, which discusses the "two models of God." As Kugel points out, the earlier conception of God--found in narratives in Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, and Judges--is an anthropomorphic one of a deity who has a body and is not omniscient and omnispresent. The latter perception often gets read into the former.

Iskander

You are not wrong. This debate would have made an excellent example of a Byzantine discussion

semiopen

This may be an example of my uncanny ability to get on the wrong side of debates but,

A first temple apparently existed in Jerusalem. There's nothing outrageous in suggesting that it contained an ark of some kind.

An ark may well have existed, I think this is consistent with Canaanite religion. The temples established by Jeroboam used the calves instead of the Cherubim on the ark as symbols of the divine presence. Assuming that an ark existed, why wouldn't it have stone tablets inside, certainly this makes more sense that a Torah scroll.

We've seen people on here debate things that are much more ridiculous such as the flood.

Iskander

Cold war warriors use the global flood regularly in this forum as a nuclear bomb against the fundies outlaws. I am a peaceful man and I have never desired to join in.

Did the ark ever exist? According to Exodus the ark existed. The quoted answers that follow are from: Exploring Exodus (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Nahum M. Sarna (ISBN 9780805210637) Chapter IX

“What was the function of this Ark? Was it merely a receptacle for the tablets of the Decalogue and nothing more? The texts strongly suggest otherwise.
We noted earlier that the tablets of stone form an analogy to the extra biblical practice of recording the instrument of a Treaty and other important documents on imperishable materials. The parallel takes on added interest if we also observe that it was customary to deposit such texts "before the god" or "at the feet" of the deity in a temple. A treaty of mutual assistance concluded between the Hittite King Suppiluliumas (ca. 1375-1335 B.C.E.) and Mattiwaza, king of Mitanni in Upper Mesopotamia, contains the notice that one "duplicate of the tablet" was deposited "before the sun-goddess" and another "before [the god] Teshub."…
In light of these analogies to the depositing of the stone tablets in a chest inside the Holy of Holies, it is reasonable suggest that in Israel the Ark was looked upon imaginatively as the equivalent of a footstool”

What was the function of this Ark? The Ark was used to house the tables of the “ Covenant –the second set of the tables.

“At the close of the theophany at Sinai, it is related that God ordered Moses to ascend the mountain for the purpose of receiving "the stone tablets with the teachings and commandments . . . ."
The tablets are placed in a gold-plated wooden chest expressly made to contain them, and generally referred to in English as "the Ark." For this reason, the Ark is variously designated "the Ark of the Pact" (in Hebrew, 'aran ha-'edut and "the Ark of the Covenant" (in Hebrew, ,aran ha-b'rit) It was deposited in the Holy of Holies, and was the only article of furniture that this most sacred domain contained”

The Cherubim

“One of the curious and intriguing features of the Tabernacle-and later of the Temple-was the pervasiveness of the cherubic motif. The cover of the Ark was adorned with two golden cherubim, and it was from the empty space between them that the divine Voice emanated.”

Julio

Thanks for your support. Yes, it is nevertheless a futile Byzantine discussion, but if you're studying to understand Bible History you have to go through much of that useless stuff.

Julio

The holy ark was a strong symbol of Jehovah's presence [but nobody ever saw the demiurge]. The priests kissed it and were ready to kill to protect it. Such was the dysfunctionality of the servants of Jehovah!...

semiopen

Just happened to read on BAR that the ark is not clearly mentioned after (or even during):

Assuming, the ark disappears this early, my feeling is it is probably mythical.

Also, I was unable to find anything in Canaanite Religion that refers to a similar cult object, seemed reasonable when I first suggested it... the golden calves with Jeroboam have been compared to the Cherubim on the ark, but it isn't clear if the calves had an ark involved.

There is a noticeable absence of religious Israelite stuff being written on stone and it seems to me the tablets might be some kind of a missing link. On the other hand, the Decalogue seems more recent than the divided monarchy, so if there was something written in stone it probably would have been something else.

bacht

Jeremiah mentions the ark:

"`And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
And when you have multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says the LORD, they shall no more say, "The ark of the covenant of the LORD." It shall not come to mind, or be remembered, or missed; it shall not be made again.
At that time Jerusalem shall be called the throne of the LORD, and all nations shall gather to it, to the presence of the LORD in Jerusalem, and they shall no more stubbornly follow their own evil heart.
In those days the house of Judah shall join the house of Israel, and together they shall come from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers for a heritage.

ch 3.15-18

There's also a legend in 2 Macc that Jeremiah hid the ark during the Babylonian invasion (ch 2)

semiopen

That's an excellent point, also mentioned in the BAR thread.

The meaning of the Jeremiah quote is not clear.

There are legends of the ark being hid before the destruction of the temple.

On the subject of hiding temple objects, there is an apparently totally false Talmudic story that the menorah had straight instead of curved arms. Before the fall of the second temple, this was cleverly hidden and fake menorahs with curved arms were substituted.

The Romans, of course, were totally fooled by this and put the fake menorah shape on the Arch_of_Titus, etc.

Up until a few months ago, I thought this might conveivably be true; now I think it has been totally refuted.

Julio

And now we do know that nothing regarding that prophecy of this one more mysterious and sinister prophet and partners Zephaniah and Habakkuk at the time came true in 27 centuries!
How's that for a false prophet?...