Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 04-25-2013, 09:06 AM

The use of the gospel in parallel with the Hasmoneans places the event in the same period, unless you have a theory to explain what you are doing.

maryhelena · 04-25-2013, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The use of the gospel in parallel with the Hasmoneans places the event in the same period, unless you have a theory to explain what you are doing.

Antigonus, last King and High Priest of the Jews, was executed by Rome in 37 b.c. The gospel story of JC has JC crucified under Pilate - Pilate dated anywhere from 19 c.e. to 36/37 c.e.

Iskander · 04-25-2013, 09:17 AM

I see. I see , I see, I see ...

mountainman · 04-25-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I am reminded of a quote from Momigliano who said that Eusebius could not have created his church history without Josephus. I can dig it out if need be.

OK - if it's not too much trouble - I'd like to see that quote.

It's from The Classical Foundations of Modern Historiography by Arnaldo Momigliano, Sather Classical Lectures (1961-62), Volume Fifty-Four, University of California Press, 1990.

Quote:

p.25

"A Demetrius of the third century BC and an Eupolemus of the second century BC
who wrote about Jewish history, were taken to be pagans by Josephus. Later
Eusebius realised, we do not know how, that they were Jews. No doubt some
Jews disguised themselves as pagans in order to be more effective in their
propaganda - and some interpolated authentic pagan works, such as those by
Manethro and Hecateus of Abdera, in order to counter counteract hostile
comments by pagans. Other Jews were genuine synchretists who mixed pagan
and Jewish elements freely."

p.27

"New discoveries are not likely to disprove the obvious conclusion that
neither II Maccabees, nor Philo, nor Josephus were ever reabsorbed into
the Jewish tradition. They remained operative only in Christian learning.
II Maccabees, in spirit if not in form, is behind the Christian Acta Martyrum.
Philo's conception of history is related to that of Lactantius' De Mortibus Persecutorum.

More generally, Philo is the predecessor of the Christian Platonists. Finally,
Josephus is one of the writers without whom Eusebius would not have been able
to invent Ecclesiastical History."

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

maryhelena · 04-25-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I am reminded of a quote from Momigliano who said that Eusebius could not have created his church history without Josephus. I can dig it out if need be.

OK - if it's not too much trouble - I'd like to see that quote.

It's from The Classical Foundations of Modern Historiography by Arnaldo Momigliano, Sather Classical Lectures (1961-62), Volume Fifty-Four, University of California Press, 1990.

Quote:

p.25

"A Demetrius of the third century BC and an Eupolemus of the second century BC
who wrote about Jewish history, were taken to be pagans by Josephus. Later
Eusebius realised, we do not know how, that they were Jews. No doubt some
Jews disguised themselves as pagans in order to be more effective in their
propaganda - and some interpolated authentic pagan works, such as those by
Manethro and Hecateus of Abdera, in order to counter counteract hostile
comments by pagans. Other Jews were genuine synchretists who mixed pagan
and Jewish elements freely."

p.27

"New discoveries are not likely to disprove the obvious conclusion that
neither II Maccabees, nor Philo, nor Josephus were ever reabsorbed into
the Jewish tradition. They remained operative only in Christian learning.
II Maccabees, in spirit if not in form, is behind the Christian Acta Martyrum.
Philo's conception of history is related to that of Lactantius' De Mortibus Persecutorum.

More generally, Philo is the predecessor of the Christian Platonists. Finally,
Josephus is one of the writers without whom Eusebius would not have been able
to invent Ecclesiastical History."

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Thanks, Pete

I do think that without Philo and Josephus - that gospel story would not have had legs to run.....

aa5874 · 04-25-2013, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Yes, you have confirmed that Jesus was alive when the Gospels say he was alive.

This has been accepted as a historical fact by Christians and educated non-Christians for almost 2000 years.

What you claimed could not have happened. There is no evidence whatsoever that the character in the NT called Jesus of Nazareth was confirmed to have lived.

May I remind you that the Gospels say Jesus lived as the Son of a Holy Ghost, that he was God the Creator who was a Transfigured Water Walker before he resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

It is virtually impossible for such a character to have lived.

Iskander · 04-26-2013, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Yes, you have confirmed that Jesus was alive when the Gospels say he was alive.

This has been accepted as a historical fact by Christians and educated non-Christians for almost 2000 years.

What you claimed could not have happened. There is no evidence whatsoever that the character in the NT called Jesus of Nazareth was confirmed to have lived.

May I remind you that the Gospels say Jesus lived as the Son of a Holy Ghost, that he was God the Creator who was a Transfigured Water Walker before he resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

It is virtually impossible for such a character to have lived.

It is what people believe when they vote which makes a government, when that belief re-elects the standing government, the people are confirming the existence of the recent history.

The beliefs in virginal mothers who bring forth the son of god have a long history in every community and enjoy strong electoral support. The voters should be offered a choice and campaigning should be energetic and fair.

I thank you, mountainman, maryhelena and others , for your efforts towards educating the electorate

mountainman · 04-26-2013, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

///// .....[trimmed].....////

p.27

"New discoveries are not likely to disprove the obvious conclusion that
neither II Maccabees, nor Philo, nor Josephus were ever reabsorbed into
the Jewish tradition. They remained operative only in Christian learning.

Thanks, Pete

I do think that without Philo and Josephus - that gospel story would not have had legs to run.....

I totally agree, and therefore wonder precisely how much of these authors' texts were "Christianised" by the Christian operators who preserved the texts. Eusebius certainly thought that Josephus witnessed the appearance of Christ in the "TF", and likelwise certainly thought that Philo witnessed the earliest Christian monastic cult around Alexandria with the description of the "therapeutae" in "Vita Contemplativa".

We now know that Eusebius was indulging in common forgery mistaken on both counts.

Do you happen to know whether Eusebius mentions the Hasmonean/Jewish history at all, and if so, what he reports of it?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 04-26-2013, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

I thank you, mountainman, maryhelena and others , for your efforts towards educating the electorate

You do all right yourself Iskander in this department, as well as aa5874 and many others, so the thanks is reciprocal.

Quote:

Yes, you have confirmed that Jesus was alive when the Gospels say he was alive. This has been accepted as a historical fact by Christians and educated non-Christians for almost 2000 years.

FWIW I make it only 1688 - almost 1700 - years.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

aa5874 · 04-26-2013, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

It is what people believe when they vote which makes a government, when that belief re-elects the standing government, the people are confirming the existence of the recent history.

The beliefs in virginal mothers who bring forth the son of god have a long history in every community and enjoy strong electoral support. The voters should be offered a choice and campaigning should be energetic and fair.

I thank you, mountainman, maryhelena and others , for your efforts towards educating the electorate

People in antiquity did not vote for Jesus the Son of a God or Constantine the Emperor of Rome.

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04-25-2013, 09:06 AM	#121
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	The use of the gospel in parallel with the Hasmoneans places the event in the same period, unless you have a theory to explain what you are doing.

04-25-2013, 09:17 AM	#123
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	I see. I see , I see, I see ...

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