Toto

That doesn't show that Christianity came out of Judaism, as opposed to adopting it.
Jews tend to take deep offense at this.

I don't see anyone here defending the content of the Jewish faith, other than to explain what it is versus what it is not.

It's not a fact. It is a hypothesis. We only know as a fact that Christians claimed a crucified man was the origin of their salvation.

Where? We have no record of mass conversions of Jews.

TedM

You must be mighty bored today. Hope you enjoyed playing your little word game with me.

andrewcriddle

Is the akedah the binding of Isaac and its significance in Jewish worship relevant here ?

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

The Expected Messiah of the Jews based on Jewish Scripture is NOT the Jesus of the Christian cult.

The Jewish Messianic ruler was expected c 70 CE and never did come and Vespasian was claimed to be the Predicted Messiah.

See Wars of the Jews 6.5.4, Tacitus Histories 5 and Suetonius "Life of Vespasian.


The Jesus cult was HIJACKED by the Romans sometime in the 4th century or later. There is no evidence whatsoever that any Jew was a member of the Jesus cult and worshiped Jesus of Nazareth as a God and for Remission of Sins by Sacrifice.

Outside the Canon and characters in the Canon we cannot find a single Christian writer of the Jesus cult who was a Jew from the supposed 1st century to the 5th century.

This is a partial list of some of the Non-Jewish writers--Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Melito, Hegesippus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Clement of Alexandria, Arnobius, Origen, Eusebius, Ephrem the Syrian, Jerome, Chrysostom and others.

Magically, there is no known Jewish Christian writer of the early Jesus cult and hundreds of years later.

The Christian Teachings of the Jesus cult was assembled without the input of a single LIVING Jewish writer.

The Jesus cult did NOT originate from Jews. In fact, the Jesus cult propagated Teachings that were Contrary to Hebrew Scripture or was essentially blasphemous.

TedM

But why would they want to do that, especially when --as you say-- it would be so offensive to the Jews? Do you buy into the conspiracy theory that Christianity tried to offend the Jews? I don't.


I said man/being. Why a Jewish one?

Logic would dictate that Christianity came out of Judiasm because something within Judiasm inspired it, not the other way around.

What was it?

I maintain that rather than appealing to a 'nutter' Paul, the context of the Jewish culture was such that there was an underground movement that either created a crucified mythical figure and called him their Messiah, or they responded to an unusual event that was so stunning in its parallels to their expectations and theology regarding salvation that they couldn't ignore it: a Messiah claimant was killed during Passover.

This last option is the more reasonable one to me.

TedM

Sure would seem to be Andrew. Thanks.

I just can't comprehend how anybody here can think that the Jewish people, whose salvation depended on sacrifice to please God wouldn't at least entertain the idea that a popular godly man killed on Passover might have been a sacrifice for their benefit. The parallels are too obvious to pretend to know that the mindset of a Jewish person was not open to the possibility. Your quotation is more support for the idea.

aa5874

You are merely repeating what you imagine. Where is the supporting evidence?? We have the writings of Philo, Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius and they do NOT show that any Messianic claimant called Jesus of Nazareth was considered a God of the Jews and was claimed to be the Savior of the Whole world by his crucifixion and resurrection.

You have utterly failed to comprehend that thousands of Jews were crucified in the 1st century and that there is no evidence whatsoever that any of them were Deified based on their suffering.

TedM

Why should they? How big was the sect when they wrote?

Why would they have been? If Jesus were mythical, why was he made Jewish, aa?

semiopen

This is pretty nuts.

There is a good chance nobody got killed and that it might not have been passover. Finally who cares if he got sacrificed on passover, is that an especially good time to sacrifice? If it is not, your argument is more ridiculous than it appears at first glance. When presenting an argument (especially one as absurd as yours seems) you should explain why sacrifices were special during passover.

The idea behind human sacrifice is that you get more bang with pleasing God than doing a cow or bird or whatever. I've written before that there is an excellent chance that all sacrifices are bullshit, in fact I doubt if anybody here would argue that sacrificing animals was useful in any way to the Jews as far as getting favors from God.

Your concept is a huge double down on the sacrificial cult being theologically useful and finally it is ended by Yoshke as the ultimate sacrifice.

The whole concept seems stupid to me.

aa5874

All of a sudden you cannot remember the Pauline Epistles and Acts of the Apostles in the Christian Bible.

Is it not claim in the Christian Bible that Paul wrote letters to Churches "all over" the Roman Empire??

Is it NOT claimed in the Christian Bible, Acts of the Apostles, that there were THOUSANDS of conversions to the Jesus cult even before the Paul was converted???

We cannot find anything about Jesus the Son of God who was crucified for the Sins of ALL Mankind outside the Christian Bible WHEN there should have been THOUSANDS of converts to the Jesus cult even before Paul.

Acts 2:41 KJVActs 4:4 KJVActs 21:20 KJV What happened to all those thousands of Jews that were converted in the Christian Bible???

They vanished into thin air.

All the Christian writers of the Jesus cult outside the Christian characters in their Bible are NON-JEWS--the thousands of converts simply melted away.

You keep on repeating the same questions??? Why??

Please, read the Bible.

The story of Jesus in the Canon was ALTERED--INTERPOLATED.

We have the ACTUAL FORGERY. We have the short gMark and the Forgery called the long gMark--Read them.

The author of the earliest Canonised story of Jesus [the short gMark] NEVER EVER claimed Jesus would die and resurrect for the Sins of ALL Mankind.

See Mark 8, Mark9 and Mark 10.

When Jesus Resurrected the Story ended.

The author of the short gMark merely wrote a story about the Son of God who people thought was a man and was found guilty of death for blasphemy until he resurrected. Even the disciples of Jesus did NOT understand that he was the Son of God.