Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 08-15-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Isn't the debate that the final stop for this train is xianity?

This account of the origins of the Roman cult of Mithras does not seem to be acceptable to scholars today, tho; the archaeology is against it, or so I am told.

The Roman cult has no connection as far as I know (other than a similar-sounding name) to the various Persian cults (about which no-one ever seems to know anything concrete).

There are none of the characteristic Mithraea in Iran as far as I know.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Evolution, mutation, Romans fighting all over Persia and picking up ideas and adapting them to their pre existing ideas, Tarsus the capital of Cicilia, pirates from Cicilia capture Caesar?...

Gore Vidal in Julian (or via: amazon.co.uk) posits exactly this chain of events. He even gives in detail a full Mithraic inititiatian rite ending at dawn with the rising sun - which way do churches face? Where exactly is the Vatican? No archaeological evidence?

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html#Paul

Quote:

"It was in Tarsus that the Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been unthinkable that Paul would have been unaware of the remarkable similarities we have already explored between Christian doctrines and the teachings of Mithraism. [Footnote:] Tarsus was the capital of Cilicia, where, according to Plutarch [46-125CE], the Mithraic Mysteries were being practiced as early as 67BCE"

"Jesus Mysteries" by Freke & Gandy [more info], p199

3. Emperor Constantine officially fused Mithraism and Christianity

"During the 1st century BC, a cult of Mithra, made much progress in Rome, after enduring persecution, when some Emperors adopted the religion... Mithra became very popular among the Roman legionaries and later even among the Emperors. The worship of Mithra was first recognized by Emperor Aurelian and he instituted the cult of "Sol Invictus" or the Invincible Sun. Emperor Diocletian also a worshipper of Mithra, the Sun God, burned much of the Christian scriptures in 307 A.D.

This enabled Emperor Constantine to merge the cult of Mithra with that of Christianity that was developing much. He declared himself a Christian but at the same time maintained his ties to the Mithra cult. He retained the title "Pontifus Maximus" the high priest. On his coins were inscribed: "Sol Invicto comiti" which means, commited to the invincible sun. This new blend of the two faiths, he officially proclaimed as Christianity. Christianity spread all over the Roman empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought and end to a variety of religions that flourished there. [...]

Toto · 08-15-2007, 02:35 PM

Clive: please do not cite Gore Vidal's novel as evidence. It's FICTION, incorporating whatever the conventional wisdom was from his youth about Christian origins.

Citing Freke and Gandy will not get you much further with most of the posters on this thread.

Roger Pearse · 08-16-2007, 12:24 AM

Can we split off this derail? This thread is about the 'quote', and I'd like it not to drift off into general Mithras stuff.

Roger Pearse · 08-16-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Transliterating the Syriac we get:

Mention also is made of the god bnd’ritos, who was worshipped until the arrival of Christ.

....

Which god would this be?

Not sure I understand your point.

I'm just transliterating what the entry says. If anyone knows how to vocalise this -- we're missing vowels on the Syriac -- then I'd be interested to hear from them.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

spin · 08-16-2007, 04:33 AM

On Mithra, here's Yasht 10 from the Avesta, which uses both Mihir and Mithra in the text.

[A slight correction from an earlier comment. "Mithra" was used by Persians; "Mitra" by the Rig Veda.]

spin

Amaleq13 · 08-16-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Which god would this be?

Not sure I understand your point.

I believe it is a straightforward question about what is known regarding the identified deity. IOW, is anything known about this god beyond this passing reference?

Roger Pearse · 08-16-2007, 08:38 AM

By all means try adding vowels to the front consonants, and see if you get anything recognisable. I couldn't recognise any familiar name of a deity.

spin · 08-17-2007, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

By all means try adding vowels to the front consonants, and see if you get anything recognisable. I couldn't recognise any familiar name of a deity.

If this is a response to my comment about the versions of the name of Mithra, the name of the text is mihr yasht, the "Mithra prayer", while forms of mithr- are abundant in the prayer.

As Zarathustra attempted to reduce deity to only Ahura Mazda, this prayer which seems to reinstate Mithra as on a par with Ahura Mazda, though created by him, was certainly written after Zarathustra's time, though it has a clear limit of writing to when the later Achaemenids mentioned Mithra as a god. The antiquity of the prayer isn't in doubt, but perhaps the title is much later.

[Further clarification on Mitra/Mithra, Old Persian used Mitra, while the Avesta uses Mithra.]

spin

spin · 08-17-2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

This account of the origins of the Roman cult of Mithras does not seem to be acceptable to scholars today, tho; the archaeology is against it, or so I am told.

Perhaps you should check things out yourself. I don't know who's been telling you things, but I think they are in error.

Who can you quote who doesn't believe that the trajectory of Mithra was from Iran to Anatolia then on to Rome and its empire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The Roman cult has no connection as far as I know (other than a similar-sounding name) to the various Persian cults (about which no-one ever seems to know anything concrete).

What evidence are you basing this apparent conjecture on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

There are none of the characteristic Mithraea in Iran as far as I know.

But what do you mean by "characteristic" here? Do you mean, as Mithraea are found in Roman contexts?? If so, you reduce your own statement to insignificance, don't you?

spin

andrewcriddle · 08-17-2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

By all means try adding vowels to the front consonants, and see if you get anything recognisable. I couldn't recognise any familiar name of a deity.

If this is a response to my comment about the versions of the name of Mithra, the name of the text is mihr yasht, the "Mithra prayer", while forms of mithr- are abundant in the prayer.

............................

spin

Hi Spin

Actually Roger was trying to identify bnd’ritos aparently a false deity referred to in Mingana manuscript 142. Do you have any ideas ?

Andrew Criddle

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08-15-2007, 02:35 PM	#52
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Clive: please do not cite Gore Vidal's novel as evidence. It's FICTION, incorporating whatever the conventional wisdom was from his youth about Christian origins. Citing Freke and Gandy will not get you much further with most of the posters on this thread.

08-16-2007, 12:24 AM	#53
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Can we split off this derail? This thread is about the 'quote', and I'd like it not to drift off into general Mithras stuff.

08-16-2007, 04:33 AM	#55
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	On Mithra, here's Yasht 10 from the Avesta, which uses both Mihir and Mithra in the text. [A slight correction from an earlier comment. "Mithra" was used by Persians; "Mitra" by the Rig Veda.] spin

08-16-2007, 08:38 AM	#57
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	By all means try adding vowels to the front consonants, and see if you get anything recognisable. I couldn't recognise any familiar name of a deity.

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