show_no_mercy

I doubt any resurrection stories were known to Paul, or he wouldn't have called his Christ the firstfruits of this coming "resurrection" age.

figuer

That would be a relatively valid argument against the position of a Christian believer, but not against my position as a non-Christian. To me that could indicate that the mythological episode of the resurrection of Lazarus had not been added yet to the Jesus story, and thus there would be no reason for Paul to know about it. The historical Jesus which Paul would have known is not necessarily the Jesus of the Gospels, but an earlier version, probably much less mythological.

aa5874

Pagans had a multiplicity of Gods to worship. In Justin Martyr's and Tatian's "Discourse to the Greeks" there is no indication that Pagans were waiting for a Jewish messiah as found in the NT.


Your statement is contradictory.

The NT cannot be both credible and not credible at the same time.

If the NT is not credible it may not provide us with information of first century "christ believers". That should be obvious.

Not at all. The internal information is not credible. Nothing in the NT with respect to Jesus, Paul, Peter or James can be ascertained.

Jesus could have only been human if he existed, yet the authors of the NT claimed, he walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds witnessed by the apostles.

The internal evidence is not credible, unless you want to assume you know.

So, when did this happen if Paul is not credible? When did the teachings and writings of the incredible Paul prevail?

It is because Paul is incredible why I doubt that he is first century.



And the writer Paul placed himself after the Gospels, too. Paul claimed there were Apostles before him.

There is no evidence anywhere that shows the writer Paul composed his writings without the benefit of the gospels.

It is the complete opposite.

The internal evidence claimed that the writer Paul was familiar with the gospel called Luke and referred to gLuke as "my gospel." See Church writings by Eusebius.


You cannot just guess that your scenario is true. You need to provide some credible source that can show that there was a figure of history called Paul in the first century.

The Church placed the writings of Paul in the first century, why do you think that they belong there when you are claiming that the Church was re-arranging history?

Surely, they could have re-arranged the chronology of the writings of the writer Paul and put them in the first century when they actually belong to the second, third or fourth.

aa5874

But, this opinion is baseless since the writer called Paul wrote that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, and it cannot be even ascertained when the writer called Paul wrote his letters.

1 Corinthians 15.3-8 The time frame of the death and resurrection of Jesus is similar to that of Matthew 27.

aa5874

You seem to forget that the letter writer Paul himself claimed over 500 hundred people saw Jesus after he was raised from the dead, and that Paul did see Jesus after he rose from the dead.

Look at 1 Corinthians 15.3-8.

There is no good evidence anywhere to show that the writer Paul never claimed Jesus rose from the dead.

Sheshbazzar

You are still seriously misunderstanding what I am stating.

The Hebrew Scriptures provide the evidence that in 300 BC there were Gentiles that lived within "Jewish" communities, and while yet retaining their GENTILE status, became believers in The God of Israel, and participated in the worship of YHWH the Elohim ("god"-sic) of Israel, and observed the various "Jewish" Sabbaths and "Feast Days" of YHWH, Yet remained "strangers", separate from that form of Judaism required of Jews by YHWH their Elohim.

(I listed many of these verses in post #54 of "Best argument against a Roman origin")


Here are a few of the verses pertaining to the "Ger Toshav", The Gentile "Strangers of the gate", "the stranger that is within thy gates"

(This same rule is agreed to, and is reiterated in the NT, even for those "not under The Law")

Note that even in marriage to a Jewish Priest's daughter, the Gentile remains a Gentile "Stranger".
Wow! no forced, or required "conversion" to Judaism, even to marry The Priest's daughter.
IE. The Jewish Priesthood was required to acknowledge and to accept "strangers" into their own midst, even into their own families
- it was not even desirable to cause a "stranger" to "convert" under any circumstance, The "stranger" being Blessed, and Delivered, -along with- the Jews, If not,
Then the Promises of YHWH, and the Jewish religion itself becomes a failure.

Note this provision was subject to certain restrictions, Gentile "strangers" were not required to observe ALL of the Jewish ritual laws, else they would have been no longer "strangers", but have become Jews themselves (proselytes)

Recall that according to the OT narrative, they were a "mixed multitude", that came up out of Egypt

Both of these commandments are conditional, "IF" a stranger chooses to participate and DO them, but there is no -requirement- that a "stranger" -must- participate in, or DO them.
The stranger has a choice, and neither choice is condemned.

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Num 15:15 One ordinance [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the stranger be before YHWH.

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Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

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Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people [were] in ignorance.

Forgiveness of sin, even to the Gentile "strangers" amongst His people.

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Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

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Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth [ought] presumptuously, [whether he be] born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

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Num 16:40 [To be] a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger, which [is] not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before YHWH; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as YHWH said to him by the hand of Moses.

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Num 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.

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Num 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office [unto you] as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

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Num 19:10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.

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Num 35:15 These six cities shall be a refuge, [both] for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.

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Deu 1:16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear [the causes] between your brethren, and judge righteously between [every] man and his brother, and the stranger [that is] with him.

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Deu 5:14 But the seventh day [is] The Sabbath of YHWH thy Elohim: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy 'stranger that [is] within thy gates'; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

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Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

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Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

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Deu 14:21 Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the 'stranger that [is] in thy gates', that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto YHWH thy Elohim.

Note the different food rule for the "stranger" than for the Jew

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Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the 'stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which [are] within thy gates', shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that YHWH thy Elohim may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

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Deu 16:11 And thou shalt rejoice before YHWH thy Elohim, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that [is] within thy gates, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] among you, in the place which YHWH thy Elohim hath chosen to place His Name there.

Gentile "strangers", NON-Jews, keeping The Feast and rejoicing with His people Israel.

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Deu 16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, 'the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates'.

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Deu 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set [him] king over thee, whom YHWH thy Elohim shall choose: [one] from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which [is] not thy brother.

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Deu 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that YHWH thy Elohim may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

A different Law regarding the lending of money to resident Gentile "strangers"

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Deu 24:17 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, [nor] of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:

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Deu 24:19 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that YHWH thy Elohim may bless thee in all the work of thine hands. 20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow. 21 When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean [it] afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

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Deu 26:11 And thou shalt rejoice in every good [thing] which YHWH thy Elohim hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that [is] among you.

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Deu 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, [which is] the year of tithing, and hast given [it] unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

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Deu 26:13 Then thou shalt say before YHWH thy Elohim, I have brought away the hallowed things out of [mine] house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten [them]:

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Deu 27:19 Cursed [be] he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

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Deu 28:43 The stranger that [is] within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.

They WERE warned.

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Deu 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and [b]the stranger that [is] in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:

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Deu 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and 'the stranger that [is] within thy gates', that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear YHWH your Elohim, and observe to do all the words of this law:

These are verses from The Torah that deal with the "strangers of the gate" Gentiles that lived, worked, and worshipped along with the Jews. (I'll forego, unless it becomes nescessary, quoting all of the additional verses to be found in The Prophets and The Writings)


What Justin Martyr and Tatian wrote some 500 years latter, cannot invalidate the evidence of what was in practice within Jewish communities some 500 years BEFORE. Your reference to Martyr and Tatian ar not germane.


These Gentiles who worshiped The God of Israel, and believed in the coming of the Jewish King and Messiah, (The "Christos" in Greek) along with the Jews, for hundreds of years before any formal institution of the seperate religion called "Christianity", were NOT "pagans"

They were simply by The Scriptures the "Gentile" "Strangers" to be recieved and LOVED by the Jews (Lev 19:34, Deut 10:19)

The term "pagans" is a late "Christian" word adoped to describe NON-Christians, and those who worshipped Gods other that the God of Israel.
It is both an anachronism, and incorrect when it is missapplied to describe Gentile peoples from earlier times who DID worship The God of Israel.

I'll let you digest the implications of this for a while before addressing the rest of your objections.
If you cannot undestand the above, there is nothing to be gained by continuing any disputations with you about the rest.

When you clearly indicate that you are able to understand that The Torah is the ancient authority, and the evidence for the existence of non-"pagan", non-Jewish Gentiles, that worshipped The God of Israel right along side of the Jewish people for hundreds of years prior to "Christianity",
Then we can move ahead and rationally discuss the religious developments of the first century.

aa5874

Well, let's look at one of your passages and see what strangers did when they were among the Jews.

Exd 12:48 So, a male stranger had to be circumcised so that he would not be regarded as a stranger, he would be regarded as a born Jew.


Next, are you implying that every stranger that lived among the Jews did not believe in any other God but the God of the Jews before they went to live among the Jews, and that all strangers regardless of where they were born believed in the same pagan Gods?

Are you implying that there were no pagan Gods at around 300 BCE?

Now, the Jewish Messiah as stated in the book called Daniel was believed to be a warrior, a fighter, a killer for God. The Jewish Messiah was expected to destroy and kill the enemies of the Jewish people like Simon Barcochebas.

There is no historical evidence in the Torah that there were Jews or circumcised strangers that lived among the Jews that expected a Messiah that would require people to ask him to forgive their sins and make the Mosaic Laws obsolete or cursed as propagated by the writer called Paul while the Temple was still standing.

Josephus, the Jew, in "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4 gave some insights as to what the Jews and possibly circumcised strangers expected of the Messiah.

Wars of the Jews 6.5.4] Now, just show me, in your first wave, where you can find the Christ of the NT the Christ that was expected by strangers among the Jews to have the power to forgive sins and to make the Mosiac Laws obsolete or cursed while the Temple was still standing.

What did strangers in Judaea from Egypt believe in ? What did strangers in Jerusalem from Phonecia believe in? Or the strangers in Galilee from Pontus in 300 BCE?

Pagan Gods.

Homer's Achilles was written around 300 BCE?

The Messiah with the killer instinct cannot be found in your first wave.

ph2ter

Do you think that witnesses of living Jesus were all already dead when Paul was writing his letters or that Jesus and Paul were not contemporary before Jesus died?

Such reasoning is defective. You cannot refer to the letters which do not exist now and suppose that they contained references which are absent in all of his surviving letters. I am sure that if we could find them that they would be no different then surviving letters, because the content of surviving letters is consistent regarding that matter. There is no reason for they to be different.

In Paul's letters appears a whole list of Pauline ethical teachings which resemble what is ascribed to Jesus in the gospels, but Paul gives them as his own teachings, not as teachings of Jesus. I will not here recount to you all the other occasions, because that would cause me to spend the whole day searching and collecting. The problem acknowledged even the New Testament scholars like for example Graham Stanton who admits that Paul fails to 'refer more frequently and at greater length to the actions and teaching of Jesus', particularly at points where 'he might well have clinched his argument by doing so'. Also if you are interested, look at Doherty's page. There you will find plenty of examples.

But I am sure that you would in your book reference some of his buildings providing their specific location in space and time.

So, your position is a half-mad wandering teacher? On what sources do you base that? Why should I accept that.
Even if true, it is not possible that Paul would never mention any concrete details locating that 'madman' in space and time.

Sheshbazzar

That works if you only look at that particular verse, while disregarding all of the other verses, and information that can be obtained from the texts.
However the same subject comes up again in Numbers 9:14 where it is clearly qualified by the "IF" , "And IF..." In other words, the "stranger" was given a choice.
And could freely choose to remain in the Gentile "stranger" state, and so not burden himself with all the dictates of the Law that would be required of a full Jewish convert.
Actually the Jewish priest and required witnesses would question the prospective prosylite very closely, and warn him of the harsh ramifications of such a choice, as under The Law he could be punished, or even put to death for transgressions that might otherwise be excused if he remained simply a God Fearing Gentile "stranger" (a "GER toshav")
Or to put it in a modern context, you, If you so chose, could quite easily join yourself to any Synagogue of Reformed Jews, or of The Conservative Jews, and several other factions, and participate in worship with them.
You would however, face a much more daunting task if you were ever to attempt to become an accepted member of a Synagogue of Ultra-Ortodox Hassidic Judaisim.
Very few Gentiles can, or are even willing to attempt to undertake such a radical transition. And it is discouraged by their Rabbim.

Back then would have been little different, there would have been thousands of GER toshav'eem Gentile "strangers of the gate" for each one that was willing to undertake all of what was required to become a "GER Tzadiq" (a "Righteous Stranger" a FULL convert to Judiasim.)

No, I am not implying any such thing, Jewish society and culture, when they were faithful to their religion and its traditions, always laid certain minimum requirements upon any Gentiles that would think to live among them.
You could do some minimal research of your own on this subject.
Is it something you don't want to know the facts about? Try searching "ger toshav" there will be plenty of information.
I think you know better. Certainly there were foreign "Gods" around in 300 BC and before, that is why Israel was warned not to have anything to do with them, to not even make mention of their names. (Exodus 23:13)
The latter Christian word "pagan" however, is anachronistic in this context.
Ah Ah Ah, and WOAH! even. You are jumping to the wrong conclusions here.
I said that in their Greek LXX Scriptures they could find the Christos that was to come, I did not even attempt to present that The Christos of Daniel, or the other Prophets of The Tanaka, or even of the original first century believers, was anything at all like that Christos that was created and promulgated by latter Gentile "Christian Church".

Stop abusing and twisting my words; I DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY, OR ITS TEACHINGS. I AM NOT DEFENDING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES.
I am only relating how it came into being, NOT COOKING UP APOLOGETICS TO DEFEND THE CHRISTIAN ABUSES OF SCRIPTURE, AND THEIR BLUNDERS.
OK? GOT IT?
I think that the "Christians" were a bunch of crackpot liars, and ignorant dupes, just as you do.

It was not a matter so much of what the "strangers" might actually believe in, If they wanted to stay alive while in Judea and in Jerusalem in the presence of devout Jews, they needed to keep their foreign religious beliefs, and foreign "gods" to themselves, or suffer the consequences.
Not in Judea, and not in Jerusalem, or you would have never heard of it.
Wrong aa, dead wrong. The "First Wave" of CHRISTOS Messiah believers were militant, and would have immediately killed anyone within their borders that was caught preaching any "god" other than YHWH.

These First Ones weren't the nambly-pambly mealy mouthed "compromise with the Greek government, render unto Cesar -peace and love- wouldn't hurt a dove" Gospel type of Christ-ers that came to the fore in the latter part of the 1st century.
They would also have slaughtered these latter perverted apostates in their tracks, if they had been contemporaries and they could have gotten their hands on 'em. They would have hated them with a perfect hatred, though they were their own offspring.

Now that I've stayed up the entire night (again) answering these things, and my woman is utterly pissed at me (again),
I think that I am being screwed in the wrong place, by someone who just wants the pleasure of fucking with me.:angry:

aa5874

But you did write this.


The prophesied Jewish Messiah is found only in the book of Daniel.

You may be twisting your own words or perhaps you are just tired after being up all night.