Amaleq13

I don't know Greek but I am certain that Paul never calls anyone "disciples". He consistently refers to them as "apostles".

Julian

I will grind through Galatians in Greek tonight if I remember. Not an easy task for me since my Greek really sucks. Maybe just selected parts.

Julian

andrewcriddle

IIUC MAThHTHS (disciple) is only found in the Gospels and Acts not in the Epistles or Revelation.

Andrew Criddle

rlogan

I see andrewcriddle has addressed this.

Obviously, this is my opinion - but I also take "apostle" of Christ to mean a spiritual sense as opposed to a literal one.

So we start with spiritual apostles, and later on we hear of disciples as the myth takes on "historical" pretenses.

Can't answer that as a scrub team player. But I see pre-existing development (now obscured to us due to the orthodox "historical" facade) as something that had to be used, co-opted, and extended. Not completely cast asunder.

Yea. A tricked-out supercub is the only thing that can do it.

spin

If we're talking about the pillars in Galatians there is no mention of Jesus with regard to them.


spin

Julian

Not true. I checked up on it last night. We have ιακωβον τον αδελφον του κυÏ?ιου. Now, it can be debated if that means physical brother or is a title or whatever. But Jesus is mentioned in connection with the Jerusalem people. Unless you feel that κυÏ?ιος refers to god and not Jesus.

As relates to my question earlier, as Andrew Criddle confirmed, Paul refers to them as αποστολοι (apostles) which is how he refers to himself as well, indicating that they had no special privilege or knowledge, other than the fact that they were apostles before he (Paul) was.

Julian

Amaleq13

That is an argument spin has put forth in the past:

Brother of "kyrios" = brother of Jesus?

spin

What does the Hebrew Ahijah mean? If your Hebrew is rusty, it means the lord is my brother, or my brother is the lord.

And who are the 500 brethren in 1 Cor 15:6? Are they the brethren of the lord in 1 Cor 9:5?

(Long ago I attempted to show that only three examples of kurios definitely referred to Jesus and 1) these don't fit semantically with the times Paul cites from the LXX where kurios must mean yhwh, and 2) these appear incircumstances where they appear to be interpolations.)


spin

Julian

My Hebrew is non-existent. I am not sure how this is relevant but I will check out the thread that Amaleq linked to above.
I consider 1 Cor 10-15 to be late additions and not Pauline. The 500 brothers segment borders on ludicrous.

I must admit that I do not have a firm opinion on the brother of the lord issue, however, being a mythicist I favor a non-physical Jesus reference interpretation here. Or, better yet, no Jesus reference, at all. Besides, I feel that if James really was the actual brother of Jesus, Paul would have paid a bit more attention to that.
I shall look around for your posts.

Julian

jakejonesiv

Paul's alleged encounter with the "pillars" is contained in the Epistle to the Galatians. Galatians is an interesting document.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Itha...Galatians.html

It was fortuitously discovered by Marcion (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4.3.2). Pseudononymous or forged material is often preceded by an alleged discovery. Perhaps Marcion wrote it himself; it seems to have some autobiographical elements.

The story of Paul's alleged encounters with the pillars is arguably modeled on the historical Marcion’s arrival in Rome. Marcion presents himself to the "pillars" of his time, the leaders of the church for approval, cf Gal 2:9. Marcion attempts to buy himself into the good graces of the Roman church with a gift of 200,000 sesterces (Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 30). Paul is alleged to do the same, a collection from the Galatians to the church at Jerusalem (Gal 2:10, cf 1 Cor. 16:1). Indeed, even as Simon Magus is said to attempt to buy in with St. Peter (Acts 8:18).

Jake Jones IV