Thugpreacha

This is a supreme example of the flaw in your logic. The fact is that I will never find one thing in the Bible that interests you only because you are already not open to it. In fact, it is the Spirit of God that you are not open to. You have rejected His existance already, and then dare anyone to prove Him to you. You will meet Him soon, and I pray that He understands why you rejected him. Your mere human intellect will never be able to create a worldview that is real. Only a worldview that avoids "taking orders". The fact is, you WILL take orders from one Spirit or the other. The refusal to believe in these "spiritual forces" will not pull you out of this hot water. Open your mind! All theists aren't ignorant!

Goliath

Impossible since I am not the one making a logical argument in this thread, remember?

Wrong. If I were not open to it, I would not have posted in this thread to give you an opportunity to find such a thing. Now, are you going to start an intelligent discussion, or are you going to continue to be a bigot by assuming that you know my every thought and intention?

Wrong again. I hold no beliefs whatsoever regarding the existence or nonexistence of any supernatural entity of any kind.

Save your threats for someone who fears you, thug.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Godless Wonder

Well, I haven't seen that the Bible has that much literary merit. Some parts aren't too bad, but mostly it just really isn't that good as I judge it strictly as literature. Alice in Wonderland kicks the Bible's ass. So does Huckleberry Finn. So does Cat's Cradle, etc. Greek Mythology likewise is more entertaining.

However, it doesn't really matter what I think about how well the Bible stacks up judged strictly as literature. The Bible wasn't meant to be read as literature. If the Bible had never existed and had never been seen before by anyone, and tomorrow someone wrote the Bible as it stands today with the disclaimer: "This is a work of fiction not meant to be taken as truth, to be judged only on literary merits" then I don't think it would receive a very favorable judgment by most folks.

Then again, "Finnegan's Wake" is today available for sale and in stock and on the shelves in the Barnes and Noble near me for some odd reason (I suppose because they must occasionally sell a copy), so what the hell do I know about literature? Literary merit is in the mind of the reader. (If the meaning of this paragraph isn't obvious, the next time you're at a bookstore or library, find a copy of Finnegan's Wake, and read the first page. (Thanks to someone on this board for pointing to this "masterpiece."))

seeker

Frankly the only thing I find interesting about the bible is it's use in controlling the minds of it's followers. It is a unique combination of carrot and stick type promises along with enough tales of cruelty to make most people afraid of the stick. Add to that the admonitions not to examine your beliefs and the demonization of atheists and other religions.

When you think about it the bible is the most refined bit of Stone Age technology we have. Obviously it still works or this forum wouldn't need to exist.

Kryten

Who edited this particular review? Whoever it was, was most thorough.


Personally I think the Bible is a very important work. Perhaps not for the quality of writing, but for its influence on the history of the world. I generally think a work that could inspire an Empire such as Byzantium must rank highly among the literature of history. Regardless of its actual content or any uniqueness in its lessons. Mein Kampf is also an important work in human history. Although I think we can all agree that as far as being a quality literary work, it does not rank highly. The Bible itself is also an important historical record of early Jewish history. No matter that its accuracy is suspect. One could say that it is better than nothing.

Having said that, as a philosophical work, I do not rate it highly

Kryten

I find this highly offensive. If you believe this kind of assertion will have an influence on atheists, you are sadly mistaken. All you have gone and done is show that while unable to make reasonable arguments in favour of your view, you will resort to hatred and anger. This is precisely one reason many atheists reject Christianity. Those who preach love for ones fellow man are often simply arrogant hate mongers who wish to force their will upon other members of the human race.
Now I wish you to back up everything you have said in a calm and lucid, and intelligent manner.

1. You must prove that your opponent is not open to the Bible. In order to do this you must demonstrate that you fully understand his attitude. If by doing so, he is able to refute you, you show your ignorance.

2. "In fact, it is the Spirit of God that you are not open to." You must now demonstrate exactly what this "spirit of God is" and that it in fact exists.

3. "You have rejected His existance already, and then dare anyone to prove Him to you" Even though you are simply reiterating something you stated previously, how about living up to the challenge? This is your opportunity. Don't waste it.

4. "You will meet Him soon, and I pray that He understands why you rejected him" You now need to back up this assertion with proof. If not, you will come across as an ignorant wind bag.

5. "Your mere human intellect will never be able to create a worldview that is real." Can you please be more specific and explain this in detail? Please then tell me, with proof of course, what exactly is "real"? It seems to be a very simplistic idea.

6. "Only a worldview that avoids "taking orders". I'm sorry, do you know your opponent personally?

7. "The fact is, you WILL take orders from one Spirit or the other. " Yet again you make an assertion without proof. Kindly back this assertion up. If you are unable to do this, I would thank you to remove it.

8. "The refusal to believe in these "spiritual forces" will not pull you out of this hot water." See # 7 above.

9. "The refusal to believe in these "spiritual forces" will not pull you out of this hot water. Open your mind! All theists aren't ignorant!" Perhaps you could offer proof? You seem to be very confident that you are correct. Please demonstrate to us unintelligent enquiring atheists just why we are so stupid. But beware, you had better make a good argument.
Also, have you met all the worlds atheists? I don't recall having met you.

Attonitus

I, personally, and following the advice of an old philologist, use gloves, mainly when I read the Paul Letters

spin

Actually, no it's not. It's in the eyes of the culture. Without those eyes you have no way to understand much of the literature. The best you can, if you have some understanding of the literature of one culture, you can project that knowledge onto the one you don't know about hoping that will suffice. Literary merit is fundamentally archetypal. The better grasp you have of the archetype the better grasp you have of the literature. You simply have some work to do to understand the arcane literature of the bible.


spin

Godless Wonder

In other words I should work until I change my mind about the literaty merits of the Bible? I'm not allowed to have the opinion that the Bible is overrated in terms of literary merit? Literary merit is in the "eyes of the culture?" So it can be established by what, a poll, to some margin of error?

That's one way to think of literary merit. I prefer to form my own opinion of the magnitude of literary merit which I should award to the Bible than to say, well, most people think the Bible is great literature, so, by definition, it is great literature, since great literature is defined by what people think is great literature. So, my opinion of the Bible is that it is enormously overrated in terms of literary merit. You can disagree with my opinion, but you can't tell me that I don't know what my own opinion is better than you know what my opinion is.

Edit to add: I think it's a mistake to dwell too much on the literary merit of the Bible anyhow. The primary purpose of the authors of the Bible was not to create great literature. Focussing on the literary aspects of the Bible is similar to focussing on the art of the automobile body designer when shopping for a used car. It can be done, but it's not advisable. The main point of the car is to get you from point A to point B, and any artfulness of it's appearance is of secondary concern. Same with the artfulness of the Bible. It's entirely secondary to the authors' central mission. The Bible is a Volkswagen Beetle covered in dayglo layers of Krylon graffiti in terms of artfulness, in my opinion.

Kilgore Trout

Yes, but according to christian beliefs, every theist who isn't a christian is ignorant.

While atheists think every god is nonsense, christians think every god but one is nonsense. Don't talk about atheists being not open to god, when you are not open to any other god but jesus and his alleged father. Why don't you give zeus a try? There is just as much evidence that zeus is a god as there is that jesus is a god.