Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 04-04-2005, 01:53 PM

Can any theist answer this question? What evidence would we find in the world if God(s)/angels/devils etc didn't exist?

Scientific hypotheses actually lay out things that could exist that would refute whatever hypothesis is posited. For example, one possible evidence against Evolution would be the ex-nihilio creation of a new species. Can the theist conceive evidence that would prove the non-existence of dieties?

DiffyQ · 04-04-2005, 04:32 PM

This is a question whose answer I've been wondering at for a while. I'm interested to see the responses it gets.

Evoken · 04-04-2005, 05:54 PM

This is a good question, let's see..

In my case out of the top of my head I can't think of something that we could find in the world or the universe that would disprove to me the existence of God. Hmm..maybe another human-like lifeform in another planet which does not holds any type of religious beliefs? I am not sure really, it is an odd but interesting question I'll have to think about it.

But narrowing down the scope a bit, I would say that to me if The Church ever errs or falls then I would simply give up on Christianity and become either agnostic, atheist or perhaps I'll go back to Chaos Magick and believe whatever suits the day.

DiffyQ · 04-04-2005, 05:59 PM

The Church has never erred? Which church exactly are you referring to?

Evoken · 04-04-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leibniz

The Church has never erred? Which church exactly are you referring to?

The Catholic Church, and by erring I mean in infallible matters of Faith and Morals. And by falling I mean that if it does then the promise of Jesus that "the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.." is false.

Gawen · 04-04-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

Hmm..maybe another human-like lifeform in another planet which does not holds any type of religious beliefs? I am not sure really, it is an odd but interesting question I'll have to think about it.

Well, let me help you narrow it down a bit more:

Quote:

Actually, there is a tribe of nomadic herds-folk in the east Govi Basin of the Democratic Republic of Mongolia that is entirely without a creation/armageddon/what's-it-all-about mythos.

They are completely without a thought of a God(s), and the mention of such a concept is met by a polite response of sheer bewilderment. They strike me as utter pragmatists (and they are not yanking my chain; this group was part of a study by Clemmins, 1985). When asked why something’s are, they respond "Because they are that way."

An entirely refreshing group of people with which to work and share a vodka or six.

M.R. Leipzig, Bsc, Msc, PhD

The Defenestrator · 04-04-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

The Catholic Church, and by erring I mean in infallible matters of Faith and Morals. And by falling I mean that if it does then the promise of Jesus that "the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.." is false.

seriously... wow.

Evoken · 04-04-2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Well, let me help you narrow it down a bit more:

I honestly don't have a problem with humans per-se, it is a complex issue because I believe that it is possible for some humans to fall completely out of grace due to Original Sin and ignore completely the question of God. God is not self-evident because of our fallen nature and because of that is why we have such a hard time stablishing any proof for his existence in any concrete grounds.

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant in my previous post, the humans you were refering to have the capacity to know and understand God and to relate to him. So in the case of the humanlike beings I was refering that live outside this planet, I mean if they lack this capacity and have no way of relating to or understanding God then this would be a good piece of evidence. Did that make sense?

Perhaps the humanlike beings was not a good example, I am trying to think of something that could be used as evidence, it is kind of hard because to me everything points towards God's existence.

In any case I will post this question in a theist forum to see what answers I get to see some ideas.

Here is the forum:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...775#post554775

BLD · 04-04-2005, 06:55 PM

This is a strange question to ask, I think. If everything that a theist sees around him (i.e. the existence of life and the universe) is the basis for his belief, then the only evidence could be the lack of life and the universe (chaos) or, if I dare say, nothingness.

Crucifiction · 04-04-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

The Catholic Church, and by erring I mean in infallible matters of Faith and Morals. And by falling I mean that if it does then the promise of Jesus that "the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.." is false.

Does the fact that Pope Innocent III was the worst mass-murderer in history until Hitler work?

04-04-2005, 01:53 PM	#1
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	*Theists: What Would We Expect To See If Dieties Didn't* Exist?** Can any theist answer this question? What evidence would we find in the world if God(s)/angels/devils etc didn't exist? Scientific hypotheses actually lay out things that could exist that would refute whatever hypothesis is posited. For example, one possible evidence against Evolution would be the ex-nihilio creation of a new species. Can the theist conceive evidence that would prove the non-existence of dieties?

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04-04-2005, 04:32 PM	#2
DiffyQ Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: University of Chicago Posts: 244	This is a question whose answer I've been wondering at for a while. I'm interested to see the responses it gets.

04-04-2005, 05:54 PM	#3
Evoken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ............. Posts: 2,914	This is a good question, let's see.. In my case out of the top of my head I can't think of something that we could find in the world or the universe that would disprove to me the existence of God. Hmm..maybe another human-like lifeform in another planet which does not holds any type of religious beliefs? I am not sure really, it is an odd but interesting question I'll have to think about it. But narrowing down the scope a bit, I would say that to me if The Church ever errs or falls then I would simply give up on Christianity and become either agnostic, atheist or perhaps I'll go back to Chaos Magick and believe whatever suits the day.

04-04-2005, 05:59 PM	#4
DiffyQ Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: University of Chicago Posts: 244	The Church has never erred? Which church exactly are you referring to?

04-04-2005, 06:55 PM	#9
BLD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 8	This is a strange question to ask, I think. If everything that a theist sees around him (i.e. the existence of life and the universe) is the basis for his belief, then the only evidence could be the lack of life and the universe (chaos) or, if I dare say, nothingness.

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