outhouse

let me ask you a serious question toto

have you even read the bible? because with some of these questions your asking, it doesnt look like it.

the bible constantly has refferences to jesus and the poor, this is common knowledge despite you dismissing cultural anthropologist that state the same thing

Sheshbazzar

All are elements of the STORY, and are only known because they appear via that STORY.
These elements only prove that there is a STORY containing these elements.

The STORY itself cannot serve as the 'evidence' that these STORY elements have any real and identifiable historical antecedents, or that there ever was any such real person.

There needs to be something external, not connected with, and wholly independent of the STORY to verify the existence of any such person.

Apart from the STORY there is essentially nothing that may be known of this person.
Outside of the Bible STORY, you have nothing more than an unknown nobody, that never did anything that history can identify.

outhouse

I agree to a point, I do believe we have a event/crucifiction of a martyred jew, and very little after that that can be said with any certainty.

I think the history is thin on all parts, but beyond following JtB and being a traveling teacher /healer and hanging out with a few fishermen preaching the kingdom of god ,,,, nothing past that can be said with certainty.




this is exactly like and mirrors the OT minimalist position, they dont carry any credibility what so ever on the extreme position they hold. Like Finklestein I like a happy place above the bottom of minimalist view, and no where near the fraud of maximalist.

outhouse

that I disagree whole hearted.


the legends serve as valuable tools for historical research on many different levels.

composition and phases and terminology and language tell us quite a bit



thats like saying all the OT is false and carries no historical importance. while it is not inerrant, that doesnt mean history cannot be pulled out of it either

Sheshbazzar

Not even any of that, in that all alike are simply plot elements in a highly mythical STORY, can be supported as being of any certainty.

No doubt you wish, -along with most christians- that these parts of the STORY are more than just story.
But truthfully, there is no way of establishing any such thing in 'certainty' other than by wishful thinking and the pontification of bald-faced unevidenced assertions.

aa5874

But, wait a minute. Did you not say Jesus was TRAMPLED??

Please, examine your own post.

You appear to be changing your story. Your inventions have been exposed.

1. Jesus was trampled.

2. Jesus was crucified.

Your Jesus is fiction.

Sheshbazzar

So it is evident.

However, it is not kosher of you to quote only half of a sentence in raising your objection.
What I wrote, stands as a complete statement;

"The STORY itself cannot serve as the 'evidence' that these STORY elements have any real and identifiable historical antecedents, or that there ever was any such real person.
There needs to be something external, not connected with, and wholly independent of the STORY to verify the existence of any such person."

Please don't fuck with my words to make them say something other than what it was I stated.

It certainly doesen't mean that the 'history' so derived can be trusted to reflect actual historical speeches or circumstances.
Jewish 'history' as presented within Jewish religious texts, is about as bad as it gets, for trying to determine anything about actual human history.



.

outhouse

I agree

and while we see faint historical cores to the legend suurounding the people, atleast some do have historicity as a person when you get past the first five books.

Sheshbazzar

You think the books of Joshua, Kings, Isaiah, or Ezekiel are giving you an actual history lesson?

aa5874

Your claim is absurd. If you see faint historical cores in the first five books of the Canon then surely you could not see any history of Jesus in the Pauline writings.

The Pauline Jesus was REVEALED by God after the resurrection. See Galatians 1.

You ought to know that the Pauline Jesus was REVEALED to Paul by a Mythological entity--a non-historical God and after a non-historical resurrection.

The Pauline Jesus is utter fiction.