Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 08-11-2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fortuna

MountanMan,

Isn't this aobut the 6th time you have been made aware of this ? Does it yet appear on your web pages about pre-nicean evidence of a Christian presence ? (disputed or not).

No, this is the first time that I have been alterted to the existence
of this "House of the Christyian Inscription" in Pompei. It does not
yest appear therefore on my exception list, but it will, thanks.

Quote:

How long before you will discover about the Christian scrawlings in the catacombs ?

If you are referring to the Alexandros Graffiti, then there is this thread:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=173371

Otherwise, the Catacombs generally here:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=173372

Both will appear on the exception list shortly. If anyone would
like to provide some reasonable scientific and/or archeological
citations as to the dating of these things; and attestations
that they depict christianity exclusively, these comments
would be welcomed.

At the moment, we only have the citations of Vatican
Tourist Guides.

Pete Brown

yalla · 08-13-2006, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

I like that anachronsim. There was no 240AD in 240AD.

Norm

I have a genuine Roman coin [bought it for a song from a bloke] that is dated 34BC.
cheers
yalla

Clivedurdle · 08-13-2006, 03:36 AM

The article with the poor photo assumes it is a caricature of Jesus with a donkey's head. Is there any evidence of this? Were there any mythical part human part donkey demigods that might have been worshipped?

Clivedurdle · 08-13-2006, 03:43 AM

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/.../graffito.html

Clearer picture?

Clivedurdle · 08-13-2006, 03:55 AM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../paganism.html

Quote:

One of the major implications that we get from this material in the early second century such as the letters of Pliny describing the Christians is that the Christians at this stage are still something new, something novel from the perspective of the Romans. The Romans don't really know quite what to make of them. They're odd. They sort of look like Jews. The Christians don't do certain things but they really don't know what they believe and what they stand for and why they're different. They're just different. They're foreign. [W]e have a good example of this kind of pagan perspective on Christians from a little graffiti found in Rome from the Palatine Hill. It shows a man hanging on a cross and below it is an inscription scratched very crudely into the wall.... It's quite literally graffiti in the modern sense of the term and it says Alexamenos worships his god. In the picture we see Alexamenos bowing down before the man on the cross, but the unusual thing is that the man on the cross has the head of a donkey. From the perspective of these pagans there was this unusual belief attached to Christianity. They're worshipping a crucified man, that in of itself is probably something that they would have thought odd, and secondly the identity of this crucified man is somehow confused with animal deities... some sort of peculiar half animal, half man person. The pagans really don't know quite what to do with all this.

mountainman · 08-13-2006, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../paganism.html
From the article ...

One of the major implications that we get from this material in the early second century such as the letters of Pliny describing the Christians is that the Christians at this stage are still something new, something novel from the perspective of the Romans.

Of course these are the types of implications that you are supposed
to draw from the flagrant interpolations of 4th century scribes under
Constantine into Pliny, Josephus, et al.

If you list these obvious interpolations out consecutively you'll find
in them an appropriate evolution of terminology concerning "the tribe
of christians".

Pete Brown

Casper · 02-12-2007, 03:43 PM

I'm reminded of the giant paper mache head that they stuck on Mad maxx's head in Beyond Thunderdome. I could see the romans getting bored and wanting to humiliate a crucifee (??) by putting a donkey head on him.

Just sayin....

Sheshbazzar · 02-13-2007, 10:05 AM

I'm reminded of "ha'sus", as in the Hebrew phrase "shquar ha'sus..." a peculuiar and funny coincidence of imagery at the very least.

DCHindley · 02-13-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IF Christianos was a meaningful term in Pompeii before Vesuvius it would probably imply that it was a meaningful term in Rome at the time of the Fire under Nero.

This might be relevant to recent debates on this forum about the plausibility of a Neronic persecution of Christians.

Andrew,

It still mystifies me why it is that this term is *always* assumed to refer to "our" Christians. Over the years I have repeatedly suggested that this term could represent a broad class of individuals (Jewish messianists) that included those we now associate with the term, but also others.

Unfortunately, the suggestion is usually ignored or immediately disregarded because it is not in the spirit of the discussion (i.e., the process of disputation is more important, or fulfilling, to the participants than the subject under dispute).

Also, neither conservative or liberal minded Christians are wild about a political origin for the term. Liberals prefer the social/ethical teachings of Jesus while conservatives prefer his role as a personal savior. Doesn't leave much room for messianism.

Dave

andrewcriddle · 02-14-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Andrew,

It still mystifies me why it is that this term is *always* assumed to refer to "our" Christians. Over the years I have repeatedly suggested that this term could represent a broad class of individuals (Jewish messianists) that included those we now associate with the term, but also others.

I agree that this is possible (Gibbon seems to suggest something similar in his discussion of the reference to Christians in Tacitus), but I am not aware of any positive evidence in its favour.

In the apparent absence of such evidence it is IMO simpler to take references to Christians as being references to followers of Jesus Christ (not necessarily remotely orthodox followers by later standards).

Andrew Criddle

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08-13-2006, 03:36 AM	#33
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The article with the poor photo assumes it is a caricature of Jesus with a donkey's head. Is there any evidence of this? Were there any mythical part human part donkey demigods that might have been worshipped?

08-13-2006, 03:43 AM	#34
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/.../graffito.html Clearer picture?

02-12-2007, 03:43 PM	#37
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	I'm reminded of the giant paper mache head that they stuck on Mad maxx's head in Beyond Thunderdome. I could see the romans getting bored and wanting to humiliate a crucifee (??) by putting a donkey head on him. Just sayin....

02-13-2007, 10:05 AM	#38
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I'm reminded of "ha'sus", as in the Hebrew phrase "shquar ha'sus..." a peculuiar and funny coincidence of imagery at the very least.

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