Doctor X

'tis a "just so" story.

Nothing more . . . nothing less. . . .

--J.D.

Biff the unclean

Nope, doesn't convince me. Although admittedly yours is the way I usually hear this story presented. With the emphasis put on the act of disobedience instead of what the disobedience itself entailed.
God having such a reaction over a little disobedience, the filching of a piece of fruit, makes him ridiculous. Punishing all mankind for an act of such little disobedience is just as ridiculous.
But remember that this is a jealous god. Eating the magic fruit changed their status it gave them a knowledge that god was reserving only for himself. They, and all their descendents gained the knowledge of good & evil--why else punish the descendents? They didn't disobey--but they did still have the forbidden knowledge.
Later in Genesis the people start building a tower to Heaven. Heaven in the bible really isn't that far up. That why Jesus and Mary and Enoch and a few OT biggies ascended bodily into Heaven. And why the Rapture Ready crowd are going to meet Jesus in the clouds. But god sees this tower and 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

This is the same theme from Adam & Eve. Man aspires to be god-like. God again is worried that men will become like gods (now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do ) and punishes everybody in the world. This time confusing their speech. All to keep them in their place.

beastmaster

Well, it's the KJV, so you might be right. What about it do you find misrepresentative, in terms of god's motivation for punishing A&E?

Doctor X

Indeed, it is another "why we are mortal and not gods" story.

--J.D.

beastmaster

Oh please. The whole fucking story is ridiculous! Plants older than rain? Walking talking snakes? If you are going to apply a ridiculousness criterion to the narrative, then you are going to reject so much of the story that there will be nothing left over to understand.

I agree with you that, according to the OT, YHWH is an asshole and a jealous god. All's I'm saying is that he punished A&E twice, once for their disobedience and once out of jealousy and fear. Frankly, I don't get how someone could read 3:17 and not understand that god first punished Adam for what Adam had *done*, and only later punished Adam for what Adam had become.

The whole Tower of Babel story is irrelevant because it in no way precludes god from punishing A&E twice for two different reasons.

Biff the unclean

There's a whole class of story called "the One Forbidden Thing." Orpheus can't turn to see Eurydice, Mrs Lot can't look to see what all the noise is about, Pandora can't peak in the box. Half the horror movies made use this same literary device. The busty co-ed can't look in the dark basement.

Kids love this type of thing. It gets them very worked up.
I could never go to the movies in New York without someone calling "Don't you open that door girl. Don't open it. AAAAAAAAHHHHH! I tolds you not to open it," at the screen.

Biff the unclean

Well, I agree that Adam was being punished for what he had done. But the way I see it is that you don't punish a bank robber so much for robbing a bank as you do for him having your money. This story is usually presented that gods problem was with Adams intent. I'm not sure that people in the culture that the author of Genesis lived in gave a rats arse about intent. Seems too evolved of a concept to fit the rest of the story.
The second punishment, the loss of a chance at eternal life-surely a "just so" story is an extension of the first punishment as it takes into account the new potential that A&E have.

I still wonder wher Xians get "free will" out of any of this?

GakuseiDon

Um... err... okay, I'll go away now... (OK, you got me!)

Peter Kirby

My guess is that the author thought of A&E as having no conscience (certainly no conscientiousness! gasp, no fig leaves) or independent moral judgment (which is generally thought to be a bad thing--in Judges, everyone does what is wise in his own eyes) but rather was supposed to obey whatever their maker said. It was not an issue of moral judgment but obedience; they gave up the sovereign rule of Yahweh for their own ideas of what to do. As a consequence of independent thought, Bad Things Happen (tm).

best,
Peter Kirby

Amlodhi

Notice however, the bible doesn't say "good from evil. It speaks of knowledge . . . both good and bad (Hebrew; "ra").

Remember, Gen. 3:7 starts "And the eyes of them both were opened . . ."

And as you mentioned, Gen. 3:22, "And YHWH said, Behold! The man has become as one of Us, to know good and bad."

With this in mind, I think that the Genesis story is a later recension which was adapted and condensed from some version of the ancient Sumerian story of Adapa (sometimes spelled Adamu).

One such version includes the following parallels:


"Summary: Adapa, or perhaps Adamu, son of Ea, had recieved from his father, the god Ea, wisdom, but not eternal life."

Excerpted from tablet #1

"He (Ea) granted him (Adapa or Adamu) a wide ear to reveal the destiny of the land.
He granted him wisdom, but he did not grant him eternal life."

Excerpted from tablet #2

(Ea says to Adapa):

"Adapa, before the face of Anu the King thou art to go
... to heaven
When thou comest up, and when thou approachest the door of Anu,
At the door of Anu, Tammuz and Gishzida are standing . . .

They will speak to Anu. A good countenance of Anu
They will show thee. When thou standest before Anu
Food of death they will set before thee,
Eat not. Water of death they will set before thee,
Drink not. Garments they will set before thee,
Put them on . . .

The counsel that I have given thee, forget not. The words
Which I have spoken, hold fast."

(End of Ea speaking)

"To Anu . . . (t)hey (Tammuz and Gishzida) speak
Why has Ea revealed to impure mankind
The heart of heaven and earth?
A heart ... has created within him, has made him a name?
What can we do with him?

Food of life bring him, that be man, eat. Food of life
They brought him, but he ate not. Water of life
They brought him, but he drank not. . .
Garments they brought him. He clothed himself.

Anu looked at him; he wondered at him.
" Come, Adapa, why hast thou not eaten, not drunken?
Now thou shalt not live." . . .

(Adapa answers Anu):
Ea, my lord said: "Eat not, drink not."

(Anu says) Take him and bring him back to his earth."

Excerpted from: ADAPA AND THE FOOD OF LIFE
[from "Cuneiform Parallels to the Old Testament " by R.W. Rogers, 1912].


Amlodhi