Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jab · 07-10-2008, 08:10 PM

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharakov

If I say "I went to the market then I went to burger king" it does not mean the same thing as "I went to the market, then I went to the park and laid in the sun for a bit, then I went to burger king".

Both of these statements are recorded as Jesus' last words, after he uttered them, he 'gave up the ghost' (in other words, he was toast).

If I was with you and I told my wife where we were, I might say:

"we went out"
"we went out to eat"
"we went to burger king"
"we went to the market, and then to eat at a fast food restaurant"
"we went to the park, then burger king"
"we took a nap and ate"
"we went for a drive, a nap, and lunch"
(or about 1000 others)

Think about how many combinations there are and all of them true. What are the odds that the details that both of us thought were important (based on why someone is asking us) are the same?

Each author had a specific purpose and audience and shared details that were important to that end.

~Steve

Another bad argument from analogy--I would argue that even if Jesus wasn't the Son of God, his death is on a whole other level if all we are talking about on the other hand is an account of an ordinary day in the life of Steve and his wife, or of me. It is difficult to think of why any author who thought Jesus was the Son of God and who allegedly knew and loved him in person would remember or record only a partial account of his last words on the cross--I mean, altogether, they are a mere handful, not several chapters worth.

Furthermore, the believers in the inerrancy of the Bible believe that God is its ultimate author and that it was written not for a limited audience but ultimately for all humanity for all time following the establishment of Christianity; so the appeal to the limited knowledge, differing audiences, and varied interests of the Gospel's human authors is an example of the true believers wanting to have it both ways, and an argument made in bad faith.

dr lazer blast · 07-10-2008, 08:26 PM

wow, jab seems to be going through the entire thread quoting things he has a problem with.... looks like we're going to have another 20 pages full of stuff that has already been resolved wrapped up in quotes from jab.... *sighs*

jab · 07-10-2008, 08:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Net2004

Quote:

Mary mother of James and Salome were the ones that encountered Jesus before they met the disciples. Mary magdelene went her own seperate way to find Peter and was not with the group when they encountered Jesus. So verse 9 does not destroy anything, as we are talking about Mary Magdelene, not the other women.
Read the narrative THEN comment.

"Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. 5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you." 8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me."

where in the account is there any hint that mary magdalene left the scene to report to peter that the body had been stolen? between which 2 verses do you want to wedge in that mary madgalene left the scene? english isn't my first language but i can see that the pronouns mentioned in the account clearly refer to the women who are mentioned in verse 1.

Exactly, more bad writing, bad grammar, if the "the women" and "they" refer to more women not mentioned previously in the text, that is, to other women than the two Marys and only the two Marys. So, either your God writes incompatible accounts of his Son's resurrection, or He uses bad grammar.

Let's say I wrote you an email saying, "My sisters Jane and Louise went to visit my mother on Sunday morning, and then the sisters left the house and they ran over to my brother Clem's house to tell him about my mother's new pet." But my brother Clem wrote you an email, "My sisters Jane, Louse and Margaret went to my mother's house on Sunday and then they came over to see me to talk about her new pet that she got on Saturday". And my sister Jane emailed you, "Louise went to see my mother on Sunday morning and then she went over to discuss with my brother Jab the possibility of my mother buying a new pet", you would be confused as to exactly what happened. If we explained that all three sisters went together to my mother's house, but Louise then went to my house while Jane and Margaret went to Clem's house, you would have, at the very least, the right to convict both Clem and me of bad grammar in the use of the pronoun "they".

jab · 07-10-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Quote:

Originally Posted by jab

Then the Bible verse is badly written, since in listing events that are to be understood by teh reader as a sequence, the one that comes last in the list happened last. So, does your "word of God" contain a patch of bad writing in a central passage (the Resurrection of Christ), that any semi-professional writer or editor would know to avoid?
No, if the verse is well written, it means either that the fear and joy were commingled, or that the fear came first, then the joy (perhaps co-mingled with remnants of the fear).

you like amaleq have forgotten 2 things. you have forgotten about mark where the last emotion described is fear, so scripture says fear joy and fear matthew states fear and joy whilst mark states that the women did not say anything to anyman for they were afraid, thus the last emotion they had was fear, you have also forgotten that the 4 gospel authors are recording the same event and thus all details must be taken into account as per the challenge listed on page one, you have just left out the details described in mark.

For what I am saying all I need to remember is the verse itself and what you say it means. I have forgotten neither of those. I am analyzing only the quoted scripture and pointing that if it means what you claim it means, it is badly written. Your response totally avoids the fact that this is what I am claiming and avoids dealing with my proof.

jab · 07-10-2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

amaleq: In what sense is this not a description of their response to the angels message?

blast: nope, maybe in your narrative but not in mine, I only talk about departure not 'reaction'.

OMG--that last Blast sentence is so incorrect, and hides its falsity by not requoting the passage to which amaleq was responding.. Here it is: blast:

Quote:

My narrative asserts that they angels told them Christ has risen. They departed with Joy and Fear. Joy in the form of hope, and fear in the form of doubt.

Joy, hope, fear, and doubt are all reactions.

sschlichter · 07-10-2008, 09:31 PM

Since you have no contradictions in the passages in question to report. Let's discuss the ways your post is errant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Would that be just like we know about the secret conversation amongst the Pharisees when they cooked up the story about the disciples stealing Jesus' body?

Some of the Pharisees were later beleivers and were in the secret meetings.

(John 12:42) Nevertheless, even among the rulers many believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess Jesus to be the Christ, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue.

(Acts 15:5) But some from the religious party of the Pharisees who had believed stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise the Gentiles and to order them to observe the law of Moses."

Luke, Matthew, John, Mark, and Paul would have had plenty of opportunity to interview them to find out what occurred in the secret meeting.

Quote:

Just like we know what Jesus prayed in the Garden even though the only possible eyewitnesses were asleep at the time?

Jesus himself woke the disciples up numerous times and also appeared to them for over forty days after his resurrection. If they had not seen him praying during the time they were awake then their was plenty of time to let them know what happened after the resurrection.

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Just like we know about the secret conversation between the Maji and Herod?

What was secret about it? Any of the Maji or people in Herod's charge could have told any number of people. Why couldn't the Maji tell Mary when they visited her?

Luke made it very clear that he very carefully interviewed and gathered information from all of these types of sources.

(Luke 1:3) So it seemed good to me as well, because I have followed all things carefully from the beginning, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
(Luke 1:4) so that you may know for certain the things you were taught.

Luke likely interviewed Mary herself. Otherwise he would not have known that she "treasured up all these words, pondering in her heart what they might mean." (Luke 2:19)

thentian · 07-10-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

the greek version does not say suddenly.

~Steve

Well several versions say "suddenly" or that it happened while on the way to the disciples. Are they just making it up?

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B40C028.htm

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:9;&version=9;

thentian · 07-10-2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

wow, jab seems to be going through the entire thread quoting things he has a problem with.... looks like we're going to have another 20 pages full of stuff that has already been resolved wrapped up in quotes from jab.... *sighs*

Do we have 20 pages full of stuff that has been resolved?

jab · 07-10-2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

The text itself contradicts you, or rather, you are contradicting it. The sentence "they ran and told Peter" is in itself a direct contradiction of "they told nobody". There is no need for me to "prove" this beyond pointing out that the two sentences are mutually incompatible. Just as it is incompatible with being truthful for you to say "I told nobody" if in fact you told your wife. It doesn't help if you later come along and say "of course I had to tell my wife, so when I said I had told nobody, I really meant nobody except my wife".

You continue to ignore the rules of the challenge, this is not about your interpretation of the scripture, this is my interpretation of the scripture, since I am the one giving the narrative. You must find fault in the way I interpret the scripture i.e. the narrative, not the scripture itself.

Disingenuous and mendacious: He is criticizing your "interpretation" of parts of the "New Testament" as being deeply inaccurate, and inadequate. Your inability or unwillingness to read other posters' posts accurately and in good faith undercuts any faith we may have in your ability to read the Gospels accurately and in good faith.

jab · 07-10-2008, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

is in direct contradiction to (Mark 16:8) "...told nobody." Your narrative needs to contain all the facts from all the gospels, including this piece from Mark that says she talked to nobody. But you write that she talked to somebody, namely Peter!

Its entirely possible and in no way IMPOSSIBLE that scripture could've meant nobody as in no one but the disciples, and mary only told peter and the other girls only told the disciples, so it makes coherent and perfect sense, what valid reasons do you have to refute this?

Er, they're women, not girls, unless you're mocking the scriptures--which of course you are in saying that "nobody" doesn't mean "nobody" when it's in the Scripture. Again, if God means what you say he does, He is a very poor writer, with respect to yet another Biblical verse.

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07-10-2008, 08:26 PM	#632
dr lazer blast Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: charleston sc Posts: 1,622	wow, jab seems to be going through the entire thread quoting things he has a problem with.... looks like we're going to have another 20 pages full of stuff that has already been resolved wrapped up in quotes from jab.... sighs

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