Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TomboyMom · 01-24-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtype_alpha

WTF?!

In the event that this thread goes on without any criticism of this one from II's resident atheists, we will have reached a new world record for most ironic thread.

Got to agree with this one. Just substitute the terms, and you get the oft-criticized "No True Christian ever deconverts" argument. Can we all agree that theists and become non-theists and vice versa?

Plognark · 01-24-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Got to agree with this one. Just substitute the terms, and you get the oft-criticized "No True Christian ever deconverts" argument. Can we all agree that theists and become non-theists and vice versa?

Hopefully.

TomboyMom · 01-24-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtype_alpha

... other than the fact that there are about 40 times more theists than atheists in America.

No, you're misunderstanding the math. Christians are incarcerated at a rate disproportionate to their total population, and atheists similarly underrepresented in proportion to their overall numbers. It is clear that a Christian is more likely to be convicted of a crime than an atheist. The question is, why?

ligesh · 01-24-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtype_alpha

... other than the fact that there are about 40 times more theists than atheists in America.

You don't get it. Atheists are UNDER-REPRESENTED in prisons. They constitute 4-10% of the population, but 0.2% of the prison population.

I mean, if it was like you said, then the whole question wouldn't come up!!! There is a discrepancy between atheist percentage in the population and that in the prison. If it was the same, then I wouldn't bother bringing it up. Good lord.

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:: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com

ligesh · 01-24-2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtype_alpha

WTF?!

In the event that this thread goes on without any criticism of this one from II's resident atheists, we will have reached a new world record for most ironic thread.

Hello: Please read through the entire conversation before you butt in with your observations. I have already explained that this position was extreme, and actually not defensible, and has switched to a negative position asking singletrack to back up her claim.

I really hate people butting in and bringing up a point which I have conceded long back.

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:: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com

newtype_alpha · 01-24-2006, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ligesh

This is proved wrong by the Jihadis. A Jihadi is actually a criminal, and criminal of the worst kind. Yet he draws his strength and inspiration from God, a god which he considers all-loving, and yet at the same wanting him to kill/destroy innocent people. So if Jihadi can hold such ideas, why not an average person.

Because a Jihadist is first and foremost a religious fanatic; ALL of his thoughts revolve around religion, not just his crimes. A religious fanatic who never commits a crime is still a religious fanatic.

A real trend in your posts lately has been making really far-reaching, truly weird generalizations based on statistics and some rather fuzzy logic. Here you are arguing that most crimes are actually religiously motivated; that's an interesting hypothesis, but trying to back up an assertion like that by quoting statistics is a little like trying to figure out whether or not a woman is married by asking about her favorite TV show. If you want to know how many criminals were motivated or enabled by religious belief in comitting a crime, then only meaningful way to find out would be to INTERVIEW THE CRIMINALS.

newtype_alpha · 01-24-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ligesh

Hello: Please read through the entire conversation before you butt in with your observations. I have already explained that this position was extreme, and actually not defensible, and has switched to a negative position asking singletrack to back up her claim.

I'm well aware of that. My observation was pointing out whether or not singletrack would be the only one to notice the point. Apparently, she was. So this one goes to the hall of fame.:grin:

ligesh · 01-24-2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

I think both singletrack and ligesh are concluding too much/too little from the data. On the one hand, it is an interesting fact that, at least in the U.S., protestant Christians are incarcerated at a rate disproportionate to their representation in the population, and atheists are similarly underrepresented. At a bare minimum, it tends to disprove the Christian argument that atheists are less moral than Christians. And singletrack, in trying to say that it is because there are more Christians in the population, appears to be bending over backwards to avoid this reality.
Finally, however, the discrepancy is so dramatic, that I don't think it's unreasonable that at least some of it is caused in some way by Christian doctrine, or by theism in general. It is certainly interesting to explore what these factors might be. ligesh, could you please specify exactly what you believe it is about adherence to Christian doctrine that causes more Christians to be convicted of crimes?

First you can draw the parallel between a Jihadi and a criminal. A Jihadi, who is actually a criminal of the worst kind, draws his strength from his God, and thinks that his God wants him to kill/rape/murder innocent people. Thus basically the idea of God held by an average guy is radically different from the omni-potent, omni-benevolent God that is held by intellectuals. And anyway, I have proposed a new model of the mind based on Evolutionary Psychology that can explain this paradox.

http://ligesh.com/article.php?q=/phi..._argument.html

It is a bit steeped in the language of evolution; so most likely you may find it not easily digestible.

--
:: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com

newtype_alpha · 01-24-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

No, you're misunderstanding the math. Christians are incarcerated at a rate disproportionate to their total population, and atheists similarly underrepresented in proportion to their overall numbers. It is clear that a Christian is more likely to be convicted of a crime than an atheist. The question is, why?

I'm offering a possible explanation. I suspect the reason might actually be an anomalie of population numbers. It's difficult to assess the exact number of atheists in America, but I'm of the opinion at this time that the number of through-and-through atheists in America is signifigantly lower than most polls suggest, while the number of deists is signifigantly higher. Either way, I'm only pointing one plausible alternate to Ligesh's hypothesis.

ligesh · 01-24-2006, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtype_alpha

I'm well aware of that. My observation was pointing out whether or not singletrack would be the only one to notice the point. Apparently, she was. So this one goes to the hall of fame.:grin:

See, the first one to commit the fallacy was singletrack. Her statement that people who identify themselves as believers in prison were actually atheists outside is the FIRST 'no-true-scotsman' fallacy committed in this thread. She is saying that those people, even though they have identified themselves as christians, were not so when they committed the crime.

This is the fucking no-true-scotsman. So instead to directly pointing it out, we made a mistake of committing our own. I guess, when trying to refute singletrack's fallacy, we ended up creating a fallacy ourselves. I realized it later, and that is when I backed down, and rather than taking a positive position, asked singletrack to back her not-true-scotsman with statistics.

See? I mean, what you have done is redundant. Since I have already backed down, and clearly explained my position, it is pretty much pointless to bring it up again.

--
:: Ligesh :: http://ligesh.com

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