luminous

I give up :banghead: . Even if the prophecy's "many nations" referred to Neb and other nations/kingdoms, I still don't see how it's a fulfilled prophecy. The prophecy appears to have Neb entering the gates of Tyre proper (the island) and conquering it in v10. It seems evident this never happened. In v11 it says that Neb's horses will trample all Tyre's streets. It seems evident this never happened. In v14 it says that Tyre "will be built no more". My map says otherwise. In v15-21 Ezekiel indicates that Tyre's destruction will be so massive and complete that Tyre "will never be found again", and it points to a single day when Tyre's destruction will occur, but those who advocate that this prophecy was fulfilled describe a very slow, gradual decline of Tyre. And no effort is needed to find Tyre today.

But if we understand correctly that Neb was supposed to conquer Tyre, why in the world would Ezekiel admit in 29:18 that Neb's attack didn't succeed? This doesn't make sense if it was evident that the prophecy failed. For a prophet to admit that one of his prophecies was false is like a cop admitting he's part of the mafia.

So, am I admitting that the prophecy failed and renouncing the infallibility of the Bible? You're probably thinking - of course not. And you're right, but not because I'm committed to my belief system regardless of the evidence, I'm not. Let me try to explain. Even though I admit that it seems apparent that the prophecy failed, I could be wrong. So I won't try to convince someone that this is a fulfilled prophecy, but I won't admit it's a failed prophecy yet because I might be wrong. I will continue to investigate Bible prophecy to see how many, if any, are demonstrably fulfilled prophecies. If the evidence leads me away from my beliefs, I will follow. Next is Isaiah 53.

Boro Nut

Good for you Liviu. Start with page 1. In my copy it's on page seven. That pretty much sets the tone from there on in.

Boro Nut

mata leao

why would the hebrew scribes go to the trouble of meticulously copying the texts if they knew the texts were wrong? why is there never any scholarly peer reviewed (by world class scholars in directly applicable fields) studies which show Bible prophecy is in error? (hint: one reason why I am "tired" of arguing about prophecy)

Sauron

1.Who says they knew? They might have believed in the texts. They wouldn't be the first followers who were wrong, yet believed sincerely.

2. Maybe they weren't literalists, and were only after the "greater meaning" of the stories.

3. Maybe copying the texts was a really great job, and paid better than farming.

Seriously, I don't find your objection very challenging.

Who says there isn't? You? Please.

Apparently you've never picked up a book on the topic by anyone except a christian.

You're "tired" for the same reason all the other christians in this forum suddenly become "tired" -- you take one look at the amount of research and study needed to support these prophetic claims, and you decide it's too much work.

Everything else is just your attempt to escape debate without admitting defeat.

mata leao

oh poor sauron! were you ever in the military sauron? I was! you dont know anything about "defeat". What are the "victory conditions"? who decides?

mata leao

You see Sauron doesnt really truly understand the Bible or how Hebrew prophets think and talk and foretell prophecy. Bible prophets are speaking for Almighty God, not some local two bit mafia Don. Almighty God is the fella who turned darkness into light and whose very words summoned forth matter and made that matter make "more" matter.Scientists are still having a real hard time with the creation of "first matter" and the ability of matter, being mindless, to create more matter, and then organize it in some useful fashion...but i digress..... Hebrew prophets preferred to merge the immediate future and the distant future without always indicating any "bright line" time signals. A prophecy usually will have a local, partial fulfillment and a remote, complete fulfillment.And even here, some prophecies will be fulfilled only completely upon the return of Jesus to earth. Notice the use of the term Babylon.Babylon is prophetically referred to as a city, a city-state(empire),a symbolic entity which persecutes saints in ancient times up to modern times, a localized enemy of the jewish people and of jehovah God and a symbolic amalgamation of apostate religious factions and nations which come against God and his chosen people and his church (true Christianity) ,that's what DR. Williaim McDoanld taught me anyway. Hebrew prophets follow a 'mishnah' based type of thinking "the way of life is like a path between fire and ice. the slightest bend in either direction is fatal.what to do? walk in the middle.Hebrew prophets used a metaphorical progresssion in their foretelling...there would be a beginning of the end, an end, and an end of the beginning in a wavelike pattern of foretelling the progression of the Israelite race, its regression due to disobedeince to God,and its restoration upon repentence and sanctification. Cycles of obedience and disobedience were understood over hundreds, even thousands of years, and not just in the lifetime of the hearers of the prophecy. To what degree? to what degree did the jewish people repent? pro tanto, other nations and cultures were used as an instrument to chastise Israel, but always proportionately. Tactical and strategic prophetic ambiguity was no idle dodge but rather a type of proportionalistic "warning" .... to be "undone" or "cut off" or told you "shall die" was often a "delayed fuse" which would not see generational impact until hundreds of years later. When a Hebrew prophet said "his line shall die out" or "shall not prosper" or "shall prosper", it might take hundreds of years before such was effected. ....

to be continued.......

mata leao

cont.....When a Hebrew prophet said a nation would be "ruined" or "spoiled" it could actually mean in the short term they would prosper......Why you ask? because one of the first things God would do when he felt compelled to punish a nation was to send them a "Bad King".....and to send them material abundance.... wise and Godly people will use abundance for good, a wicked and foolish people will use abundance for hedonism and evil. "By indirection find direction out"(Shakespeare). In Hebrew prophetic lexicon the word "destroyed" can mean "I will destroy", I am in the process of destroying, or "If you do not repent I will destroy".....

Hebrew prophetic metaphor for "getting one's but kicked" could be called being "cut off" or undone,or smitten by the hand of God, etc and could mean anything from losing a small skirmish, to loss of a battle, to loss of hegemony over neighboring lands, to loss of sovereignty(e.g. the rule of the tetrarchs over Israel) to loss of an empire. Over many many years of comparing thought vs. spoken vs. written expression one can see interesting comparisons between aboriginal tribal communication and that of the Hebrew prophets. Most lexicographers attribute this to a basic survival trait that smaller, weaker tribal groups had to develop, especially those living in the harshest conditions. The desert Bedouins share much here with the North American Eskimos. If caught in a bitter blizzard and a man falls through the ice far from fire and warmth, an eskimo guide will say , in reference to the man whose clothes are now covered in freezing water but who has been rescued..."your friend is dead",meanang...although you are just standing there freezing right now, in an hour or two you will be dead. to be cont.....

John A. Broussard

Since you seem to have a clear understanding of the bible, I wonder if you could explain the following to me:

JOSHUA10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Could you describe what actually happened that day?

Thank you.

mata leao

cont....for example, a tragic incident I have personal knowledge of: during the Cold War, because the U.S. forces were stretched thin defending Europe and the Pacific, often small groups of strategic bombers armed with nuclear ordinance would be stationed at remote airfields in farflung places as regional threats ebbed and waned....sometimes in desert bases in the middle east small units of U.S. soldiers would hire local tribal groups to guard the perimeters of these airfields. In one case, Bedouin mercenaries were hired to protect these nuclear armed bombers, these Bedouins used dogs that were trained to attack intruders.... the Bedouins were issued orders that anyone without clearance who tried to get close to any of these bombers were to be killed...a young, arrogant West Point Lieutenant was out one day inspecting the "guard mount" for the aircraft, decided he would go take a look at one of these nuclear bombers, he was warned to get clearance form the Bedouin first but arrogantly assumed his obvious uniform and rank would be sufficient, he started walking the mile or so out to the aircraft..... one of the U.S. enlisted soldiers saw him off in the distance and ran up to one of the Bedouin guards and yelled that it was an American officer....the Bedouin simply replied "the American officer is dead"..... the Bedouin, knowing full well it was an American officer and he posed no threat whatsoever, sent the dog to kill him, because those were his orders. Sure enough, one dead officer. The Bedouin way of thinking is akin to "so it is written, so it shall be done, so it is already done"... and that is also exactly the way the Hebrew prophets think and talk.....to be cont..

Sauron

So was I.

Enough of your speculation and evasion. Do you have a point here? One that you'll actually support with references?

No, I didn't think so.