Freethought & Rationalism Archive

post tenebras lux · 03-27-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks EL, this is an interesting additional bit of information.
Does anyone happen to know whether any other author, and/or
translator of "Meditations" have made any mention of this 11.3 ref?

I would be particularly interested in similar claims of late interpolation.
However I have absolutely no citation (yet) between the dates of
c.167 CE (when it was purportedly written) and 2003 with G.Hay.
Surely someone else must have made a comment about this reference
in the intervening centuries?

Firstly: didn't Marcus write it in greek originally?

Secondly: my copy mentions that the phrase is fishy.

Not sure if it's the same translation, although I did just purchase it (as I can't find my old 'penguin classics' copy. I'll try and check tonight.

Another thing I found annoying were other places where chrisitians appeared to have ensured a letter was dropped here and there. Marcus talks about 'the gods' and 'zeus' this and that, but then suddenly 'God' gets a mention.

WTF? :huh:

mountainman · 03-27-2007, 03:16 PM

Marcus wrote in Greek, yes.

Thanks for that reference. Indeed it was the one that
I have previously encountered and failed to index. Some
further information, all taken from the link below.

The inscription, tomb and literature citations in this
particular historical instance all concord to paint the
one (non christian) picture. The event has integrity
as far as its "historicity index" is concerned.

Porphyry (233-305) on the Sramanas

Porphyry extensively describes the habits of the Sramanas (whom he calls Samanaeans) in his "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV [5]. He says his information was obtained from "the Babylonian Bardesanes, who lived in the times of our fathers, and was familiar with those Indians who, together with Damadamis, were sent to Caesar":

"For the polity of the Indians being distributed into many parts, there is one tribe among them of men divinely wise, whom the Greeks are accustomed to call Gymnosophists. But of these there are two sects, over one of which the Brahmins preside, but over the other the Samanaeans. The race of the Brahmins, however, receive divine wisdom of this kind by succession, in the same manner as the priesthood. But the Samanaeans are elected, and consist of those who wish to possess divine knowledge." Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV

"All the Brahmins originate from one stock; for all of them are derived from one father and one mother. But the Samanaeans are not the offspring of one family, being, as we have said, collected from every nation of Indians..."Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV

On entering the order: "The Samanaeans are, as we have said, elected. When, however, any one is desirous of being enrolled in their order, he proceeds to the rulers of the city; but abandons the city or village that he inhabited, and the wealth and all the other property that he possessed. Having likewise the superfluities of his body cut off, he receives a garment, and departs to the Samanaeans, but does not return either to his wife or children, if he happens to have any, nor does he pay any attention to them, or think that they at all pertain to him. And, with respect to his children indeed, the king provides what is necessary for them, and the relatives provide for the wife. And such is the life of the Samanaeans. But they live out of the city, and spend the whole day in conversation pertaining to divinity. They have also houses and temples, built by the king". Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV

On life and death: "They are so disposed with respect to death, that they unwillingly endure the whole time of the present life, as a certain servitude to nature, and therefore they hasten to liberate their souls from the bodies [with which they are connected]. Hence, frequently, when they are seen to be well, and are neither oppressed, nor driven to desperation by any evil, they depart from life." Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food", Book IV.

post tenebras lux · 03-28-2007, 01:03 AM

Turns out that my new copy (in Penguin Books' 'Great Ideas' series) is just a republishing of my original penguin classics translation by Maxwell Staniforth, which was first published in 1964.

It translated the paragraph as: Happy the soul which, at whatever moment the call comes for release from the body, is equally ready to face extinction, dispersion, or survival. Such preparedness, however, must be the outcome of its own decision; a decision not prompted by mere contumacy, as with the Christians,* but formed with deliberation and gravity and, if it is to be convincing to others, with an absence of heroics.

The footnote reads: * If these words are authentic and not a later insertion, they are the only reference which Marcus makes to the Christians. C.R. Haines, however, in the Loeb edition of the Meditations, points out that the clause is 'outside the construction, and in fact ungrammatical. It is in the very form of a marginal note, and has every appearance of being a gloss foisted into the text.'

Hope this helps.

mountainman · 03-28-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Turns out that my new copy (in Penguin Books' 'Great Ideas' series) is just a republishing of my original penguin classics translation by Maxwell Staniforth, which was first published in 1964.

It translated the paragraph as: Happy the soul which, at whatever moment the call comes for release from the body, is equally ready to face extinction, dispersion, or survival. Such preparedness, however, must be the outcome of its own decision; a decision not prompted by mere contumacy, as with the Christians,* but formed with deliberation and gravity and, if it is to be convincing to others, with an absence of heroics.

The footnote reads: * If these words are authentic and not a later insertion, they are the only reference which Marcus makes to the Christians. C.R. Haines, however, in the Loeb edition of the Meditations, points out that the clause is 'outside the construction, and in fact ungrammatical. It is in the very form of a marginal note, and has every appearance of being a gloss foisted into the text.'

Hope this helps.

Definitely. Thanks post tenebras lux.

Second century citations to the existence of christianity
just lost an atom of integrity, as follows:

2nd - XXX - Papyrii fragments (Dated via paleography
2nd - 109 - Tacitus (references in Annals XV)
2nd - 112 - Plinius, Ep 10:97 - Pliny to Trajan
2nd - 113 - Trajan to Pliny (rescript)
2nd - 115? - Trajan's order of the Martyrdom Ignatius
2nd - 135? - Hadrian Rescript to the pro-consul of Asia
2nd - 150? - Antonius Pius (emp:138-161) to the commune of Asia
2nd - 166 - Martydom of Justin Martyr at Rome
2nd - 167 - M.Antoninus "christian" ref (Med, 11:3)-INTERPOLATION
2nd - 167 - Martydom of Polycarp at Smyrna
2nd - 169 - Lucian (Life of Peregrine)
2nd - 174 - M.Antoninus (Rescript?)
2nd - 174 - M.Antoninus (Report to Senate re: "Thundering Legion")
2nd - 175 - Celsus
2nd - 177 - Apology of Melito (to M.Antoninus ?)
2nd - 177 - Apology of Tatian (to M.Antoninus ?)
2nd - 177 - Letter "Gallic christians" - Martydom of Blandina & Pothinus
2nd - 177 - Apology of Athenagoras (to M.Antoninus ?)
2nd - 178 - Apology of Apollinaris (to M.Antoninus ?)
2nd - 178 - Apology of Theophilus (to M.Antoninus ?)
2nd - 178 - Apology of Miltiades (to M.Antoninus ?)
2nd - 180? - Lucian (Alexander the Prophet)

It is notable that many citations fall into the rule
of M.Antoninus (aka Marcus Aurelius Antoninus),
and that Philosopher Jay has provided an article
showing how the Letter of the "Gallic christians"
and Martydom of Blandina & Pothinus, could have
reasonably been forged by Eusebius (in the 4th C).

How long will it be before other objective historians
understand that these extra-Ecclesiastical citations
are diminishing rapidly in relational integrity, and that
one day the entire list will be shown fraudulent.

It would appear to an objective historian that it is
becoming eminently possible that the history of the
invention of a new and strange Roman religion did
not truly commence until the fourth century.

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03-27-2007, 03:16 PM	#12
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Marcus wrote in Greek, yes. Thanks for that reference. Indeed it was the one that I have previously encountered and failed to index. Some further information, all taken from the link below. The inscription, tomb and literature citations in this particular historical instance all concord to paint the one (non christian) picture. The event has integrity as far as its "historicity index" is concerned. Porphyry (233-305) on the Sramanas Porphyry extensively describes the habits of the Sramanas (whom he calls Samanaeans) in his "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV [5]. He says his information was obtained from "the Babylonian Bardesanes, who lived in the times of our fathers, and was familiar with those Indians who, together with Damadamis, were sent to Caesar": "For the polity of the Indians being distributed into many parts, there is one tribe among them of men divinely wise, whom the Greeks are accustomed to call Gymnosophists. But of these there are two sects, over one of which the Brahmins preside, but over the other the Samanaeans. The race of the Brahmins, however, receive divine wisdom of this kind by succession, in the same manner as the priesthood. But the Samanaeans are elected, and consist of those who wish to possess divine knowledge." Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV "All the Brahmins originate from one stock; for all of them are derived from one father and one mother. But the Samanaeans are not the offspring of one family, being, as we have said, collected from every nation of Indians..."Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV On entering the order: "The Samanaeans are, as we have said, elected. When, however, any one is desirous of being enrolled in their order, he proceeds to the rulers of the city; but abandons the city or village that he inhabited, and the wealth and all the other property that he possessed. Having likewise the superfluities of his body cut off, he receives a garment, and departs to the Samanaeans, but does not return either to his wife or children, if he happens to have any, nor does he pay any attention to them, or think that they at all pertain to him. And, with respect to his children indeed, the king provides what is necessary for them, and the relatives provide for the wife. And such is the life of the Samanaeans. But they live out of the city, and spend the whole day in conversation pertaining to divinity. They have also houses and temples, built by the king". Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food" Book IV On life and death: "They are so disposed with respect to death, that they unwillingly endure the whole time of the present life, as a certain servitude to nature, and therefore they hasten to liberate their souls from the bodies [with which they are connected]. Hence, frequently, when they are seen to be well, and are neither oppressed, nor driven to desperation by any evil, they depart from life." Porphyry "On abstinence from animal food", Book IV.

03-28-2007, 01:03 AM	#13
post tenebras lux Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Republic and Canton of Geneva Posts: 5,756	Turns out that my new copy (in Penguin Books' 'Great Ideas' series) is just a republishing of my original penguin classics translation by Maxwell Staniforth, which was first published in 1964. It translated the paragraph as: Happy the soul which, at whatever moment the call comes for release from the body, is equally ready to face extinction, dispersion, or survival. Such preparedness, however, must be the outcome of its own decision; a decision not prompted by mere contumacy, as with the Christians,* but formed with deliberation and gravity and, if it is to be convincing to others, with an absence of heroics. The footnote reads: * If these words are authentic and not a later insertion, they are the only reference which Marcus makes to the Christians. C.R. Haines, however, in the Loeb edition of the Meditations, points out that the clause is 'outside the construction, and in fact ungrammatical. It is in the very form of a marginal note, and has every appearance of being a gloss foisted into the text.' Hope this helps.

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