Toto

No, Yuri, you are the one claiming that there was an early tradition of martyrdom, and that this is significant. You tell me when it started.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Nope, Toto, I'm not really claiming that there was such an early tradition of martyrdom...

This current discussion about Paul and Kephas is mostly relevant to Peter Kirby's belief that both are historical persons.

Regards,

Yuri.

Toto

So we agree that there was no early tradition of martyrdom, and no problem for mythicism?

NOGO

When I was writing that bit about no Christians would die for their faith I thought of the JW but decided to leave it out.

I am glad that you brought it out.

The reason that the JW are potential martyrs is that their community demands such martyrdom. Exactly my point.

You cannot equate Jesus' death with refusal of treatment.
So Jesus is not a moidel.
The JW are like early Christans. The community demands and expects martyrs over the faith. If you refuse martyrdom they throw you out.

Other Christians communities have abandoned such extreme requirements of membership.

What really does not help you here is that the JW tend to de-emphasize Jesus and his sacrifice. They only celebrate mass once a year.

Yuri Kuchinsky

I'm not sure of that...

The problem for mythicism is that there's no clear explanation of how the tradition of Christian martyrdom originated.

Yuri.

NOGO

To me it is crystal clear.

As Loisy says Christians were victims of their own intolerance.

Christrians had the attitude that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
No compromise is possible. Christianity simply could not live with other faiths.
In such circumstances it is only a question of time before it comes to confrontation.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Loisy doesn't say that.

So where would they get this attitude?

So when did it come to confrontation?

Yuri.

NOGO

I was not quoting.
In The Birth of the Christian Religion, Chapter VI Persecution Begins, Loisy says that the Jewish Religion was an intolerant religion because it recognized only one God at the exclusion of all other.
Christians inherited this God and this intolerance.
Since this discussion comes under the titile of Persecution Begins one can conclude that Loisy believes that this is an essential element of the reson for the persecutions. Otherwise why discuss this issue at length.

I summed it up into a one liner. I do not believe that I have misrepresented him.

This also answer your second question. Christians inherited it from the Jewish faith. They were the new chosen people of a jealous God. But while Jews kept to themselves Christians spread like a plague.

For your third question I can go with what Loisy says.
It started right after Paul's trial. Year 64.

Regards,
NOGO

NOGO

Yuri,

I would be curious about you thoughts on my post on the JW.

NOGO

Yuri Kuchinsky

Where is your post on the JW?

Yuri.