Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 06-17-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

You are arguing for a fictional Jesus, not a mythical Jesus, but I think roughly the same problems are present for a fictional Jesus, with more problems that go on top. I don't want to argue each individual point with you, because it is far more time-consuming than it is worth for me. I think I would tell you the same as I told Doug Shaver about compounded probabilities. You can always make ad hoc alternative explanations for anything, but it is better if you actually have evidence, so you can actually tilt the evidence toward your position. For all we know, Jesus could be an outer-space alien, but the proposal needs evidence and probability in order to be taken seriously.

I don't think I'm arguing for a "fictional" Jesus, I have no opinion on the historicity of "Jesus the Christ" - I guess I would be agnostic about this person's existence. But I think my point still stands: in order to find a "historical" Jesus, you have to assume the Jesus you want to find and then crop out that evidence for him out of all the documents about "Jesus". From the Talmud, canonical and apocryphal epistles, canonical and apocryphal gospels/homilies, "secular"/pagan, etc.

All of these sources present vastly different "Jesuses" and I don't think there's any way of objectively finding a "historical" Jesus without the methodology ultimately being circular.

Yeah, I agree. My approach is to use the authentic Pauline epistles and the synoptic gospels as the primary material on Jesus, and I treat the later Christian writings (2nd century and onward) as the secondary material. The secondary material is useful only for interpreting the intended meaning of the primary material and to track the evolution of the Christian religion. The late writings do not give direct evidence on the life of Jesus. I don't think we have to assume a certain kind of Jesus before finding it, but it may be a good idea to assume the truth of a theory just to test how well it holds up against attack. There are some explanations of history that have the best evidence, the greatest probability, the most elegant unity and the fewest ad hoc explanations for problems, and the apocalyptic cult leader theory seems to be the best explanation for Jesus. It is much like any other scholarly field, but good Biblical scholarship is a foreign thing to most people. The most exposed forms of Biblical scholarship are used to promote a religion, with hardly any concern for reason or probability at all.

mg01 · 06-17-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

www.craigaevans.com/Priene%20art.pdf

Has anyone proposed Seneca as the writer of GMark with actually the character of Jesus being Seneca?

Putting his personal battles in a Jewish context makes wondrous ironic sense!

The premise behind this site: http://www.nazarenus.com/ is that GMark was based on one of Seneca's "lost plays".

Clivedurdle · 06-17-2009, 12:44 PM

I was alluding to Nazarenus, but expanding on it - might Jesus have been invented by Seneca to portray himself?

And this stuff of consistency of mythical and or fictional characters as against real ones also seems mythical and fantastic! Has anyone read any of the tales of Hercules or Apollo? Consistency of character?

One of my tipping points was Doherty's treatment of Hebrews. How does this Jesus, or the one in Revelation, relate to Paul's or Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's or John's?

Ooops I seem to have at least seven different Jesi in the New Testament and there are several other books I haven't mentioned!

Clivedurdle · 06-17-2009, 12:52 PM

And my link comparing the beginning of the Gospel of Mark to that of documents about Augustus Caesar goes to the heart of my point - are we looking at superb satire and irony? A 2000 year old hypertext?

No Robots · 06-17-2009, 12:53 PM

And how many Napoleons are there: The Corsican ogre, the embodiment of the Revolution, the military careerist, the Romantic hero, the helpless pawn of popular will?

Clivedurdle · 06-17-2009, 12:55 PM

Kindly show me Jesus's hair with traces of arsenic in it.

No Robots · 06-17-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Kindly show me Jesus's hair with traces of arsenic in it.

Sorry, all I can see is a hairy arse, and I don't know whose it is.

Yellum Notnef · 06-17-2009, 02:35 PM

Well I'm sold. No Robots arguments via cartoons and Leonard Cohen lyrics was enough to change my mind.:notworthy:

Should there be a seperate sub-forum for weird "Jesus is awesome" woo woo or is there just so much here already that a new forum would be redundant?

Vampyroteuthis · 06-17-2009, 02:43 PM

King Arthur isn't real either?! :crying:

No Robots · 06-17-2009, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

Well I'm sold. No Robots arguments via cartoons and Leonard Cohen lyrics was enough to change my mind.:notworthy:

Should there be a seperate sub-forum for weird "Jesus is awesome" woo woo or is there just so much here already that a new forum would be redundant?

The hallmark of the fanatic is that he lacks a sense of humour about what he obsesses about.

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06-17-2009, 12:44 PM	#43
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I was alluding to Nazarenus, but expanding on it - might Jesus have been invented by Seneca to portray himself? And this stuff of consistency of mythical and or fictional characters as against real ones also seems mythical and fantastic! Has anyone read any of the tales of Hercules or Apollo? Consistency of character? One of my tipping points was Doherty's treatment of Hebrews. How does this Jesus, or the one in Revelation, relate to Paul's or Matthew's, Mark's, Luke's or John's? Ooops I seem to have at least seven different Jesi in the New Testament and there are several other books I haven't mentioned!

06-17-2009, 12:52 PM	#44
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And my link comparing the beginning of the Gospel of Mark to that of documents about Augustus Caesar goes to the heart of my point - are we looking at superb satire and irony? A 2000 year old hypertext?

06-17-2009, 12:53 PM	#45
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	And how many Napoleons are there: The Corsican ogre, the embodiment of the Revolution, the military careerist, the Romantic hero, the helpless pawn of popular will?

06-17-2009, 12:55 PM	#46
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Kindly show me Jesus's hair with traces of arsenic in it.

06-17-2009, 02:35 PM	#48
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	Well I'm sold. No Robots arguments via cartoons and Leonard Cohen lyrics was enough to change my mind.:notworthy: Should there be a seperate sub-forum for weird "Jesus is awesome" woo woo or is there just so much here already that a new forum would be redundant?

06-17-2009, 02:43 PM	#49
Vampyroteuthis Contributor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 14,915	King Arthur isn't real either?! :crying:

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