BH

Friend Bigmo,

I appreciate your patience.

Here is the verse I promised to find for you:

5:13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. Yusuf Ali translation

the above verse and the next few verse after that chastise the Jews and Christians for corrupting truth.

BH

Here is 5:13 in Ahmed Ali's translation, which is less technicaliese:

When they dishonored their pledge We condemned them, and hardened their hearts. So they distort the words of the Scriptures out of context and have forgotten some of what they were warned against.....

BH

God can never ordain people to follow something that is corrupted. Did the Koran tell the pagans to follow their religion? Did the koran tell the pagans to keep their pagan rituals? All the condemnation the Koran inflicted on the Jews and Christians was never about the Torah or Gospel. This idea that the Koran can order people to follow something corrupted was made by Sunni jurist so as to justify the ceation of an islamic state where Jews live by Torah, Christians by the Gosepl and Muslim live by their juristic opinions of the State clerics. Its a way to create an Islamic state. And since the Jews and Christians are not following their dogma, they can not apply it on them and want to say well they must abide by their scriptures even if its corrupted so as to ease the legal applications. Its all lies and politics. The Koran is clear, the Torah and Gosepl must be followed not to ease the legal application of a state, but because God supported and confirmed its authority. Muslims just want to find an excuse to label others as infidels, like the Jews and Christians did. The Koran responded to that:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113

If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them 4.124

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62

And if you ask the Islamic sects about these everses they will tell you this was before Muhammad and after that the Torah and Gospel were abrogated and they are now infidels if they do not join the sects. Whats strange is they even believe most of the Koran is abrogated, so whats the point of following scriptures? What they want is people to follow THEM.

Allah is a God of grace and mercy. If he wished to give grace to Jews and Christians who sincerely wish to serve him, but in ignorance did not know their scriptures were corrupt, who are you and I to argue?

It doesn't change the fact the Quran has replaced the earlier scriptures as authoritative today. Once the Christians and Jews are made aware of this fact they are obligated to become Muslim, or else lose their souls.

Bigmo

Out of context is what many Christians do. I have shown that in my intial post. If the Book has been corrupted then youi do not need to take things out of context. The "son of God" is an example of takkings things out of context. I explained that in my intial post.

BH

Here is a qoute from Rodwell's translation (1866):

2:75---..Woe to thosewho with their own hands transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say, 'This is from God',that they may sell it for somemean price! Woe to them for that which their hands have written! Woe to them for the gains which htye have made."

I have other translations and various translators have footnotes stating that the passages mean the Christian and Jewish scriptures were corrupted over time by the evil among those peoples.

I humbly disagree with you about taking things out of context. The Jews and Christians could have corrupted their scriptures over time and have taken them out of context as well.

Da Vinci

Why I think you are wrong is shown below:

5:72 Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said: "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with God, then He will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."
5:73 Rejecters indeed are those who have said: "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.
5:74 Would they not repent to God and seek His forgiveness? God is Forgiving, Merciful.
5:75 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.
5:76 Say: "Do you serve other than God what cannot harm you or benefit you?" God is the Hearer, the Knower.
5:77 Say: "O followers of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system other than the truth, and do not follow the desires of a people who have been misguided before, and they misguide many; and they strayed from the right path."
5:78 Cursed are those who have rejected from among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and Jesus son of Mary. That is for what they have disobeyed, and for what they transgressed.

Bigmo

The verses before that and after that explains it. This is about those who never knew the Book and wrote things down, not the Book itself. The book itself the Koran says are to be followed.

The verse after that is talking about the Talmud. There si nothing in the Torah the Koran codemned and there is nothing in the Gospel the Koran condemned. The Koran condemned Jewsih claims made in the Talmud and Christians claims not supporte by the Gospel, like the trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

Even the verses about the crucifiction is condemning the Talmudic claim that the Jews crucified Jesus and presented a false charge against Mary.

Bigmo

Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say Muslims say so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)

Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 68)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)


As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption is mentioned. How can God say the previous scriptures are corupted then order them to follow them. It even attacks those who refuse to follow it.

Whats more the Koran seems to indicate its a confirmation of the previous scriptures.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48

It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)

Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning to originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about. They then point to this verse as evidence.

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.

2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book. It was confusing at first but then the next verse explained it:

2.80 And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"

This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them.

The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[4] Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[5] Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever,[6] in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Also in the Talmud:

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.

Also:

The Schindler's List Quote

The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.

The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase:

"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."

However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.

In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.

In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.

The Koran tells us about this and condemns this:

5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

The koran tells us:

4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The Talmud then say:

Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.

Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books") will have no portion in the world to come.

Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

The koran responds by:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113

“Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first” - (Babba Bathra 54b)

“If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit” - (Choschen Ham 183,7)

“Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin” - (Babha Kama 113a)

“The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew” - (Talmud IV/2/70b)


4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

Note: The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek").See the Old Testament Ex. 22: 25;
Le. 25: 36-37; De. 23:19-20; Ne. 5: 7/10; Ps. 15: 5; Pr. 28:8

The Koran then say:

4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

Bigmo

Islam is peace

Toto

I have moved the last two posts to this thread from the Judaism and Islam thread.

I am rather suspicious of something from a site called revisionisthistory, published by someone with no particular credentials operating out of Coeur D'Alene, Idaho. The ADL wrote a rebuttal of Hoffman's work, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Politics. Hoffman is also discussed in the wiki entry Self-Hating_Jew.

I suspect that this thread does not really fit in this forum.